Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

Post by petey »

ysu wrote:hence the orig vid says you need to buy newer cars for young drivers, IIRC. (altho a car which locks the rear brakes is plain faulty. and it does not have anything to do with the drum brakes either, I reckon; I've been driving drum-brake cars for ages, never had a rear lockup)
take notice, not high power cars, but newer ones. An old crap is always an old crap and if you spin in front of a truck you really don't need to go too fast to die

Well it positively has to have something to do with the brakes haha. My bearings were fine and theres no rear diff in a FWD. I have had 3 cars with rear drums all of which buggered up on me all the time, I use to pull handbrakes everyday on the dirt road to my house however, I was never kind to them so they never returned the favour.
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

Post by Rots »

Here's the definition for "Speeding" in NSW RTA Crash Statistics.

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/do ... ts2008.pdf
what a load of bullshit wrote:Criteria for determining speeding and fatigue involvement

Speeding

The identification of speeding (excessive speed for the prevailing conditions) as a contributing factor in road crashes
cannot always be determined directly from police reports of those crashes. Certain circumstances, however, suggest the
involvement of speeding. The Roads and Traffic Authority has therefore drawn up criteria for determining whether or not
a crash is to be considered as having involved speeding as a contributing factor.

Speeding is considered to have been a contributing factor to a road crash if that crash involved at least one speeding
motor vehicle.

A motor vehicle is assessed as having been speeding if it satisfies the conditions described below under (a) or (b) or both.

(a) The vehicle’s controller (driver or rider) was charged with a speeding offence; or
the vehicle was described by police as travelling at excessive speed; or
the stated speed of the vehicle was in excess of the speed limit.

(b) The vehicle was performing a manoeuvre characteristic of excessive speed, that is:
while on a curve the vehicle jack-knifed, skidded, slid or the controller lost control; or
the vehicle ran off the road while negotiating a bend or turning a corner and the controller was not distracted by
something or disadvantaged by drowsiness or sudden illness and was not swerving to avoid another vehicle, animal
or object and the vehicle did not suffer equipment failure.
So, a young male driver traveling along an unfamiliar country road on a nice summers day sees a bend without speed advisory signs. The bend at first appears gentle and is assessed in microseconds suitable to be taken at the speed limit. But the apex of the bend is blind and sharpens considerably. Upon the driver realising this, he panic's, hit's the brake hard and loses control of the vehicle slamming into a tree. Dead. Police attend, notice the skid marks and extent of damage to the vehicle... the accident is therefore determined to be from excess speed. (WTF??)

That's logical because it means we get to ignore the lack of warning signs, driver inexperience and any other possible factors such as the vehicle and it's safety equipment (or lack thereof). And what of the road? Had it been a gentle bend as the driver assessed it to be, would the incident have occurred... and was it off chamber also?

How to solve the problem? Erect a speed camera or fit hidden cameras in unmarked cars and make money from anyone who brain farts upon its approach. That's much easier than actually teaching people how to correctly drive their vehicles and far more efficient as it makes money, not costs money. It is just to easy to categorise accidents under "speed" rather than addressing the real issues at hand.

RTA, you failed again.
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

Post by ysu »

thank you Rots :up:
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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I lol at the news when they suggest "Police believe speed may have been a factor" . Speed is always a factor, I'd like to see you flip a car while its not moving. (without external forces like another car)
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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petey wrote:I lol at the news when they suggest "Police believe speed may have been a factor" . Speed is always a factor, I'd like to see you flip a car while its not moving. (without external forces like another car)
Actually there was a pretty impressive roll over at about 5k's an hour in the rallysprint I was in last weekend... speed wasn't really a factor, the angle of the embankment was... :D
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

Post by petey »

hehehe. Speed was still a factor however, without the motion it wouldn't have happened.
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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petey wrote:hehehe. Speed was still a factor however, without the motion it wouldn't have happened.
true but only after the accident started was speed a factor, it picked up speed during the roll over... prior to that the inabilty to steer thus missing the embankment was considered the primary cause... :)
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

Post by petey »

Ah yes however my point is they don't mention speed being a major factor. For instance car wraps around a pole and is nearly split in two
Please believe speed may have been a factor
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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petey wrote:I lol at the news when they suggest "Police believe speed may have been a factor" . Speed is always a factor, I'd like to see you flip a car while its not moving. (without external forces like another car)
It is usually reported as "Police believe speed may have been a factor."
bengatta wrote:Actually there was a pretty impressive roll over at about 5k's an hour in the rallysprint I was in last weekend... speed wasn't really a factor, the angle of the embankment was... :D
I have seen a car rolled in a McDonald's Drive Thru...
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

Post by petey »

I'm afraid emphasising the Police Believe does not change the content of the statement.
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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No. It verifies the source of the information.
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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Ok. I don't understand your point. Unless your taking offence to me attacking the news and suggesting its the police officers fault in which case I could see where your coming from. Either way, it's a stupid thing to say from both parties.
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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J.D. wrote:I have seen a car rolled in a McDonald's Drive Thru...
Not quite as bad but just as funny, I have seen a car thru the fence on the exit of a maccas drive thru... The not so little lady at home must have been pretty insistant on the length of time it took for her big mac with quaterpounder with cheese double beef and bacon burger large fries large coke apple pie and a chocolate sunday to arrive at the door...

As such we should ban mcdonalds drive thru's they are clearly unsafe... :)

2 incidents known, that means a royal commision is required....
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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petey wrote:Ok. I don't understand your point. Unless your taking offence to me attacking the news and suggesting its the police officers fault in which case I could see where your coming from. Either way, it's a stupid thing to say from both parties.
Not offended. Just indicating that we are not usually in a position to make any claims since we are not investigators.

Not stupid if all we are doing is quoting the police. Although this is from a newspaper, here is an example:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/pascoe ... 5884500458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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bengatta wrote:
J.D. wrote:I have seen a car rolled in a McDonald's Drive Thru...
Not quite as bad but just as funny, I have seen a car thru the fence on the exit of a maccas drive thru... The not so little lady at home must have been pretty insistant on the length of time it took for her big mac with quaterpounder with cheese double beef and bacon burger large fries large coke apple pie and a chocolate sunday to arrive at the door...

As such we should ban mcdonalds drive thru's they are clearly unsafe... :)

2 incidents known, that means a royal commision is required....
It was funny. The Drive Thru was lined with railway sleepers to delineate between the roadway and the garden bed. The driver, in a Nissan Skyline, hooked the end of one of the sleepers with his front mudguard just behind the front wheel. The car was going fast enough for the railway sleeper to pivot against the other end and lever the car over onto its roof. :doh:
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

Post by ysu »

I think we've all seen this - speed was a factor, all right...:)

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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

Post by wobblysauce »

speed no, flooring the accelerator maybe quite possible
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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J.D. wrote:
petey wrote:I lol at the news when they suggest "Police believe speed may have been a factor" . Speed is always a factor, I'd like to see you flip a car while its not moving. (without external forces like another car)
It is usually reported as "Police believe speed may have been a factor."
This is what annoyed me about these sorts of stories. By emphasising the speed element, the reporter is inferring that speed is the most or the only significant factor whether that's true or not.

I don't recall ever hearing, "police believe weather conditions were a factor; the condition of the car was a factor; the road layout was a factor; the driver being a total moron was a factor." It was only speed.
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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Read the link I posted Durbs. It mentions a wet road and tram tracks as contributory factors. Here is another:

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/man-a ... -zaab.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I should also mention that it was stated that alcohol was not a factor in this crash so I think you can safely say that the usual contributory factors were examined. The emphasis on the speed element comes not from the reporter but from the police. They have the authority to say it. It is the reporter's responsibility to report such comments accurately. That's all.

As for the "driver being a total moron" factor, Rankin has said that about as plainly as you could want:
Inspector Bernie Rankin, Major Collision Investigation Unit wrote:‘‘Here we have a little three-and-a-half-year-old girl, she had no choice in what happened to her, she had no ability to change the situation - the other driver did,’’ he said.

‘‘At the time he lost control of his vehicle we estimate he was travelling at 90kmh on a wet road with tram tracks, and of course with a number of other road users in the vicinity.

‘‘It’s nothing more than selfish behaviour, it’s having total disrespect for other road users, total disrespect for themselves, it’s selfish, at times it’s criminal and really, there is a limit to what police can do in these situations."
He went on to say:
‘‘That is a significant increase on last year’s road toll and there are no real reasons for that, apart from the fact that drivers are not abiding by road conditions, they’re not abiding by the rules and laws of the road,’’
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

Post by petey »

I dare say one article in a newspaper/internet doesn't quite cover the generalisation that we are suggesting. One expects a reporter could also say nothing, journalists quote what they like and generally this is done to get people to watch/read what it is you are conveying.
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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petey wrote:I dare say one article in a newspaper/internet doesn't quite cover the generalisation that we are suggesting.
Actually, I quoted two articles about the same thing from two different publications. Perhaps what you call a generalisation is actually a stereotype.
One expects a reporter could also say nothing, journalists quote what they like and generally this is done to get people to watch/read what it is you are conveying.
Not at all. The journalist's job is to report the incident, using salient quotes from observers to fill in gaps. Subtle as the difference may seem, it is not a reporter's job to tell you what to think but what to think about. As I said recently, only a fool would expect everyone to agree with what they write and equally, only a fool expects people to write what they want them to write. Since few can claim to be "in full possession of the facts", the best source of information in this case is the police. Here is another example from a different reporter written before the police had briefed the media:

http://www.news.com.au/national/man-tod ... 5884545242" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's the sitch: wet road at night with tram tracks for added colour and a curve to negotiate. As far as we know every other driver managed to negotiate that section of road successfully without killing themselves or anyone else. That would include people who may have been less skilled, driving less roadworthy cars or any other of a number of factors, yet this guy did not. The salient point was not the conditions - since everyone else dealt with them successfully - but the speed at which he was traveling, which was exceptional.
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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All I can tell you from a non academic point of view is that from what I have experienced it appears to me they sensationalise speed. Because this is the interpretation I get from it then maybe it is my fault maybe it is theres, but yes I stereotype the media.
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

Post by J.D. »

Petey, you're not alone. :tilt:

In fact, I suspect it's me who is out on a limb in most of this!
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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J.D. wrote:Read the link I posted Durbs. It mentions a wet road and tram tracks as contributory factors. Here is another:

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/man-a ... -zaab.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sorry I wrote that in a bit of a rush so didn't quite clarify it :) I wasn't really referring to accidents such as the one you posted, where speed genuinely was a significant factor, I was talking about the majority of accidents where speed isn't necessarily relevant but is reported as such.

I just had a quick look on the Sydney Morning Herald site and here are perfect examples. This story includes this:
SMH wrote:Speed may have been a factor in the crash, say police.
And this story which includes:
SMH wrote:Roads Minister Tim Pallas said on Saturday it appeared that speed played a part in the double fatality.
They are completely meaningless statements, so how can their inclusion be justified?

And while they may well be just reporting what the police say, that could quite legitimately have come from this sort of exchange:
Journalist: "was he speeding?"
Cop / MP: "maybe."

What bothers me about it is that it suggests the journalism is being influenced, and that the pieces are written or edited to give weight to the current road safety campaigns. To me, that isn't a pleasant place for journalism to be in and it makes me question everything. It's not exactly North Korea of course, and it could just be down to poor journalism but it still makes me incredibly sceptical about the validity of the news.
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Re: Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

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No worries Durbs.

It doesn't usually happen that way. To be honest, I can't remember the last time I heard a reporter ask that question but that may be down to poor or even selective memory on my part. But if it can't be substantiated, we probably won't report it. Tim Pallas would have been briefed by his own people who would get their information from the police.

I would say that neither of those statements are actually meaningless. Often times the cause is blatantly obvious to anyone there but nobody can actually say until the police confirm everyone's suspicions. And we don't usually say anything until they do (sometimes there are other circumstances over which we have no control).

While it was suggested that speed was the cause of one (the motorbike3 fatality), there was another which was put down to driver fatigue:
In Kerang, a German national died and a girl of about 10 was left in a critical condition after an accident that police said may have been caused by driver fatigue.
The third was inconclusive. So that's three fatalities with one attributed to speed, a second to driver fatigue and the third not reported, perhaps due to a lack of information. I don't see the problem.

You need to remember that just reporting a crash doesn't convey anything. It's necessary to give some detail. The basics of the practice are the "who, what, where, when, how and why". You need to cover as much of that as you can to make it work.
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