Solar panels.

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Solar panels.

Post by norbs »

Well, last Wednesday we had a 2kw system hooked up, and now just await Integral to get back to us with the meter and we will no longer have any power bills, well, up until the point that power is nearly 5 times the cost it is now. Has anyone else been hooked up to the grid, and if so, how long did it take? I have heard horror stories of 8 months.

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Re: Solar panels.

Post by ysu »

niiice! Keep reporting mate, I'm really curious how much it can really generate on the long run.

Does 2kw reall covers your whole house's needs? I mean, we have a reverse cycle aircon, which alone runs at 5kw...the computer is about 0.5kw, small heater 1kw, fridge, tv, etc...

I've seen data outputs of PV ("photo voltaic") systems (I was doing a reporting system for unsw) and they seem to have a curve, and large drops (I guess bad weather). But those are somewhat different systems I guess.
And since I'm sitting here all day every day using quite a bit of electricity it could be a good deal for me. The only problem is the ROI as I calculated...it looked to be around ~15 years last I checked, and that was with optimum power output. Oh, and larger rebate as well I think...
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by norbs »

ysu wrote:niiice! Keep reporting mate, I'm really curious how much it can really generate on the long run.

I've seen data outputs of PV ("photo voltaic") systems (I was doing a reporting system for unsw) and they seem to have a curve, and large drops (I guess bad weather). But those are somewhat different systems I guess.
And since I'm sitting here all day every day using quite a bit of electricity it could be a good deal for me. The only problem is the ROI as I calculated...it looked to be around ~15 years last I checked, and that was with optimum power output. Oh, and larger rebate as well I think...

The ROI is a strange beast. We were quoted anything from 2.5 years to 15 years. And the wildly varying recommendations and quotes made it a lot more time consuming to investigate. The amount of BS out there is astounding. It is estimated that it will take us about 5.5 years to pay it off. But we have gone for a system that is roughly 1.75 times the size we needed to cancel out or bills. There were a few people telling me that if you were obviously using the system to generate income, the tax office will tax you on it. Trying to get clarification on this was near impossible. Even the fuckwits at the ATO gave me 3 different answers the 3 times I called them.

I went with a 3k inverter too, just in case I want to add more panels at a later date. The chances are very slim, but it will save me buying a new inverter if I do.

There seems to be a bit of chatter about that in NSW we are nearing the 50Mw limit the government set for the feed in tariff. I really don't know about this, but I did have 2 places call me that I hadn't spoken to for 3 months asking me if I wanted to go ahead with the quote, and requoting me better deals.

My only advice is to do your home work. There is a hell of a lot of BS out there.

http://www.industry.nsw.gov.au/energy/s ... scheme/faq" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nsw.gov.au/articles/nsw-solar-bonus-scheme" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by wobblysauce »

gratz norbs, which solar cells did you go with? some even if there is a tiniest bit of shade/Leaf/bird droppings turns the cell off, so keeping them clean helps.

with the pay off amount it depends on what way you are talking, if you are talking about $$$, that depends on the cells/area of sunlight(more from QLD then you will from Vic etc, light hours), or are you talking about carbon payoff(the amount of power needed to make and transport the panels)that can take a long time(newer style)- to never get the full return of the panels(older styles).
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by ysu »

norbs wrote:The ROI is a strange beast. We were quoted anything from 2.5 years to 15 years.
I did not get a quote on it, I did my own simple calculation, knowing the panel output, electricity prices, panel installation prices, and the rebate. (I did not calculate with anything I put back into the grid though, as I knew I'll use more than the sort of panel installation output I was looking at)
And I went with near-optimum power output for the daytime. This was a year ago, and sadly the panel prices were simply too high for their output, usually. I guess it'll go down (maybe it already is down?)

Maybe I've mis-calculated something - I hope so :)
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by norbs »

ysu wrote:
norbs wrote:The ROI is a strange beast. We were quoted anything from 2.5 years to 15 years.
I did not get a quote on it, I did my own simple calculation, knowing the panel output, electricity prices, panel installation prices, and the rebate. (I did not calculate with anything I put back into the grid though, as I knew I'll use more than the sort of panel installation output I was looking at)
And I went with near-optimum power output for the daytime. This was a year ago, and sadly the panel prices were simply too high for their output, usually. I guess it'll go down (maybe it already is down?)

Maybe I've mis-calculated something - I hope so :)

Just to give you an idea, our 2kw system cost us $8500 after all the rebates and discounts.
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by ysu »

That's about right, from what I recall - I was calculating with a tad cheaper one :)

Now pick up an electricity bill, and see how much a kwh costs, IIRC $0.16 or something. Say you get 10hrs of sunlight (avg all year round), and let's say you actually use all (so it really is an income of 0.16/kwh - I think if you get paid for what you put back into the grid you get far less).
that's 10hrs * 2Kw * .16 = $3.20/day. in a year (365 days) you get $1168 (of savings)

That's actually sounds quite good, ROI ~8 years. But as you can see I've calculated with 100% efficiency 10hrs a day all year round. That's not going to happen...and as you get paid less for the elec you charge back into the grid that takes some of it away too. So I'm guessing 12 years, maybe a bit more? Altho if the elec prices double in the meantime, that nearly halves your ROI too :)

But this also shows that quoting 2.5yrs on ROI is plain BS, one should avoid that company; that simply cannot happen with the current panel prices.

Edit: it seems I've over-estimated the avg sunlight hours
http://www.livingin-australia.com/sunsh ... australia/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by norbs »

Here is a rough estimate that the company we used came up with.

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You get paid 60c per kwh going back into the grid, and it is based on a gross calculation, not net, which is way better. Also, the figure of $1700 a year is what we get in earnings, and doesn't take into account we pay about $200 a quarter for bills.

I might sit down and whack it all into a spreadsheet, because every time I do it I get a different figure. :)

I do know now, that even with the worst case scenario, we will be in front in closer to 8-9 years than 15 years.

Also, the current scheme is only good for 7 years, who knows what will happen after that.
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by DarrenM »

I looked at it a couple years ago but I calculated something like a 15 year ROI. It's cheaper now, but my bills are pretty low so it would still take me too long to justify doing it to a town house.

My roof being on the wrong alignment doesn't help either.

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Re: Solar panels.

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norbs wrote: You get paid 60c per kwh going back into the grid,
:eyepop: no way! I'm buying elec for 16c /kwh, there's no way they pay 60c for charge-back... are you sure?
Edit; you're correct
http://www.energymatters.com.au/governm ... outh-wales" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

that changes the picture somewhat, I concur! And obviously this wasn't in there before... :)

However, for this you really need to use less than what you put back, otherwise I think it's just credited to you. Are you sure you're not using more than ..what... ~15kwh/day?

I've just checked, my average was 17kwh daily for the last period. And that was a no heating & no cooling period too. Hmhm....

Edit2;
I've read the page. It's gross feed-in. So it does not matter what you use otherwise. What's the government up to, I can't tell, but this is a great way to get back the costs if you're not a big user in the daytime.

Onya mate, best of luck with it, seems you'll get it back sooner indeed!
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Re: Solar panels.

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DarrenM wrote:I looked at it a couple years ago but I calculated something like a 15 year ROI. It's cheaper now, but my bills are pretty low so it would still take me too long to justify doing it to a town house.

My roof being on the wrong alignment doesn't help either.

What you need now is an electric or plug in hybrid car :)

Yeah Darren, the roof really makes a difference to the calculations. I am actually thinking of tilting ours a bit more in winter to get better returns. My roof is 2˚ off true north, so direction is about as good as it gets. My roof pitch is 21˚, and apparently to get best results in winter the panels should be about 35˚. See this web page... http://www.macslab.com/optsolar.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A mate and I have looked at fitting a hinged bottom bracket and then using aluminium spacers to lift the top to get 35˚, but at the moment it will have to wait. Its a bit of work and cost. Will give it a while to see how they perform.

Another thing you have to think about is obstructions. Trees, buildings etc. They can have a huge effect on the capacity to generate electricity. Early morning in winter mine panels are in shade due to a gum tree that might have to have a hair cut.
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Re: Solar panels.

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Mine is about 80˚ off north, there's a Gum tree on the eastern side, and the roof of the adjoining house north of mine is about 1 metre higher than mine. Probably about as bad as it gets :)
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by Jiminee »

Just a guess - but the reason they buy it back at such a seemingly high cost would have something to do with them not having to produce it hence reducing the load on the existing systems - get enough people putting back into the grid and you may not need that new power station.....
Plus gotta be some incentive there to get people involved.
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Re: Solar panels.

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In my day if you wanted electricity you had to rub two cats together for four hours to make cuppa tea and that was considered sheer luxury!
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by Hz-Lab »

I've been thinking of doing this. The one thing holding me back has been the confusion over the taxable income. From what I understand, while you are claiming a credit off your elec bill you're fine, but when you start receiving cheques from them it's classed as income... is that right?
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Re: Solar panels.

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Hz-Lab wrote:I've been thinking of doing this. The one thing holding me back has been the confusion over the taxable income. From what I understand, while you are claiming a credit off your elec bill you're fine, but when you start receiving cheques from them it's classed as income... is that right?
Not according to most of the mobs I spoke to, and 2 of the ATO people. But, the other ATO wanker said if the amount was "substantial", it could be seen as income. When pressed, she said there was no set figure at that time. It seems to be different for CentreLink benefits though.

http://www.energymatters.com.au/governm ... hp#fit-tax" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.see-change.org.au/?q=node/103" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am no tax expert, but if those fucking cocks at the ATO want to tax the money I make as income, I will be claiming the whole installation as a deduction and depreciating it like any other depreciable.
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by ysu »

I think what this highlights is the strangeness of this 60c / KWh. I think it's a rather crazy way of trying to create an incentive.
It's incorrect: really beneficial if you're not working from home, only. (because in that case you're use up most of it right away, instead of charging it back into the grid)

I reckon they should increase the rebate instead, if they really want to help everyone the same way.

In any case; what they pay out is an income, whatever way I look at it. If it's taxable income...well that's up to the ATO, so if they say it isn't, all good.


by the way; if your roof is not right, you can install it on standalone poles instead, can't you?
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by wobblysauce »

or.. if you want put it all back in the grid at 60c/KWh, and then use the power from the grid paying the 16c/KWh. Could you do it and make 44c/KWh ? it could be lower Avg depending on light.
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Nah Kombi powered by used chip shop oil and love..
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Re: Solar panels.

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wobblysauce wrote:or.. if you want put it all back in the grid at 60c/KWh, and then use the power from the grid paying the 16c/KWh. Could you do it and make 44c/KWh ? it could be lower Avg depending on light.
In NSW you have to ask to go on the net feed in instead of gross. I think it is only NSW and ACT that have gross by default.
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by J.D. »

My parents did this a few months ago. It took something like 3 months for it to happen but it's up and running now.

Should be compulsory on all new homes and developments, along with water tanks. Certainly wouldn't hurt the average Australian's ability to cover day to day costs.
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by ysu »

from the govt site:
Gross vs. net feed in tariff

A net feed in tariff, also known as export metering, pays the PV system owner only for surplus energy they produce; whereas a gross feed in tariff pays for each kilowatt hour produced by a grid connected system. It's a very important difference.
The net is clear I think; you use x amount a month, and generate y amount, and pay or get paid for the difference (correct?)

But explain please, as it's not entirely clear; does the gross one pay for the total output of the system, then? Or just the part of the output which was fed back into the grid at any time?
If it's the earlier, it's feasible even for me, and it's exactly what Wobbly said; a free revenue to get the cost back (and thus you're better off buying the biggest baddest system, as that'll generate the most electricity)
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Re: Solar panels.

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ysu wrote:from the govt site:
Gross vs. net feed in tariff

A net feed in tariff, also known as export metering, pays the PV system owner only for surplus energy they produce; whereas a gross feed in tariff pays for each kilowatt hour produced by a grid connected system. It's a very important difference.
The net is clear I think; you use x amount a month, and generate y amount, and pay or get paid for the difference (correct?)

But explain please, as it's not entirely clear; does the gross one pay for the total output of the system, then? Or just the part of the output which was fed back into the grid at any time?
If it's the earlier, it's feasible even for me, and it's exactly what Wobbly said; a free revenue to get the cost back (and thus you're better off buying the biggest baddest system, as that'll generate the most electricity)
The gross feed just means you get paid 60c per unit for every single kwh you produce. You then get charged what ever the going rate is for the kwhs you use.

For example, lets say you use 100 kwhs a month, and generate 100 kwhs a month.

On the net system, you end up with a zero bill, since you didn't produce a surplus.

On the gross system, you get 100x60c ($60) paid to you and are expected to pay them 100x16c (or what ever the cost of power is at the time) $16, so in fact you make $44 for that month. Even though you only produced what you used, because you get credited all of what you produce, you come out in front. And will do until the price of power is equal to the feed in tariff.

The constant spiral in the cost of power is the only thing that worries me. But I am hoping that I manage to pay off the system before it gets to the point that they are equal. I may not.

One thing I have up my sleeve is we will be replacing the hot water system very soon, which accounts for nearly 25% of our bill. Damn thing is 30 years old and has to break soon. :)
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Re: Solar panels.

Post by ysu »

Thanks mate,
ah, Norbs, but if the elec. price gets up to 60c your savings will be so much higher that it does not matter if you get cash back or not.

by the way my wife recalled (and I remember now as well) seeing a report on TV a little while ago about a few people, who were pinged by a nice big tax on the income from a PV system.
I think things are not clear at the ATO (which is a worry in itself).

Altho I don't remember the details. Those might have been industrial size systems.

I'm getting really excited about this...and fuck me why did I get the solar hot water? I really wish the old heater wouln't have been such a crap then I wouldnt' have been rushing to replace it...Altho it'll run free in the summer, that's for sure, it now takes up half the roof on the north side.

So based on this, you'll get the price of the unit back in about 4-5 years, or if it's a very sunny season, in 2-3 indeed. Man, that's good :up:
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