Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

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Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by Exar Kun »

So it's been 20 years. Amazing that there's been no more fatalities in a contemporary F1 car since then but I guess the events of that weekend were a catalyst for change that has enabled that stat to exist. I was in year 11 and taped the races back then so I could watch them in the morning. My mum woke me up extra early to tell me Senna had died. It just didn't seem real although with Ratzenberger's death the day before my mind wandered into the "what if" territory of "what if one of the big names died?" It's probably the biggest single event to have ever occured in F1. Coming as it did during that horrible weekend we then had a hole in F1. No world champions on the grid and tracks and cars that were being sanitised in a hodge podge kind of way. No more flat floors. Smaller engines. Higher cockpit sides and eventually grooved tyres, narrow car tracks and so on.

Anyway, there's plenty to read and watch about Senna, including the excellent team mates doco. Here's a couple of good links on Roland:

http://adamcooperf1.com/2014/04/30/rola ... -a-friend/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://brabham.co.uk/news/david-brabham ... mola-1994/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by Nigel »

Watched the race live. It was a terrible GP weekend, and I can't beilive it's 20 years ago. Gosh I must be getting old
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by w00dsy »

every year i see stuff saying 'no one remembers Roland'. Yet he gets mentioned every year, obviously he's not the first one people think of but his association with Senna means he will always be remembered. You know who no one remembers, Riccardo Paletti, the previous death at a GP.

I was never a fan of Senna, i didn't like his ruthless behaviour, but i won't deny he was a gifted son of a bitch. He wasn't the most complete GP driver i've ever watched, but he is most certainly the fastest. He could so things that seemed unnatural, especially when he had his religious moments. There was something about him that was so unlike anyone else that has been in F1.

In a sad way that was the death that had to happen to save drivers in the future. They wouldn't have made all those new rule changes if it was just a backmarker like Roland. Certainly not as quickly as they did anyway. It shook the F1 world to it's core, probably the way Jim Clarks death did. Suddenly everyone was thinking 'if they can die then anyone can'.
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by Exar Kun »

I didn't like Senna before '94. Principally because he drove for "the enemy" in McLaren but even then I was on the Prost side of the Prost/Senna divide. I never really saw him as a Williams driver. Still, his death shook me and I admit I got swept up in the whole Senna movement following that weekend and these days I'd much prefer to read or watch something about Senna than Prost. What still stuns is how bad that weekend was. Every day an incident involving a driver and then the debris in the stands and loose wheel in the pits during the race too. It was just such a massive wakeup call in all areas.

Senna vs Schumacher really would have been something to behold over the next few years. As fans of the sport that's probably what we lost the most in terms of F1. It wasn't until Hakkinen that we got someone who consistently took it to Schumacher and he still wasn't on the same level.

Here's another piece I came across. Senna's last 96 hours in quite a lot of detail. Ignore the jibe about Ratzenberger at the start and it's quite interesting if not particularly well written.

Http://8w.forix.com/senna1994.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by Jamo »

Jimmy Clarks death was the beginning of the end of Grand Prix Racing (as opposed to Formula 1) JYS went on his crusade and boom, kaput. Think about it within 5/10 years all the Classic Motor Racing circuits were gone. Money quickly became the driving factor and (comparatively) it all went to shit.

Ayrton Senna himself all but finished it as a legitimate Sport in my opinion with his behavior and his eventual death swept away the tattered remnants of it.
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by DexterPunk »

I felt similar to you EK about Senna as a kid. Wasn't a fan at all. But I still very much appreciate the talent that he had. And sport needs it's adversaries. It was a huge thing, and I watched it live too.

Something on what w00dsy had to say... Which I agree on... The extra 1% he seemed to have, the X factor. I think the closest thing I've seen since were the odd moments/races from Schumacher. But I don't think he was naturally as quick.

I don't think you'd see it right now, even if a special driver was out there. The current tyre saving/fuel saving doesn't seem to let it happen. Or the technical abilities of the car just aren't close enough or limit those extra tenths. Or maybe it's because we are continually approaching such technical excellence that it's so hard to spot even if someone was performing so brilliantly. Even team mate vs team mate seems to be skewed at times. Have a look at Ricciardo and Vettel.

F1 has always been about tech, there just seemed to be that era where tech was still mostly analogous which is somehow a shame to be left behind.

...or maybe we just romanticise past eras of sport.



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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by norbs »

Jamo wrote:Jimmy Clarks death was the beginning of the end of Grand Prix Racing (as opposed to Formula 1) JYS went on his crusade and boom, kaput. Think about it within 5/10 years all the Classic Motor Racing circuits were gone. Money quickly became the driving factor and (comparatively) it all went to shit.

Ayrton Senna himself all but finished it as a legitimate Sport in my opinion with his behavior and his eventual death swept away the tattered remnants of it.
You'd rather half a dozen blokes died each year for the entertainment benefit of the spectators? :(
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

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I cried and cried on the Monday after when I found out. I loved watching Senna drive an F1 car. He made them dance like no one else could.

:(
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by Dr. Pain »

It can't be all sad though. This is magic with Murray and James calling it. I was cheering so much back in the day watching this. :)

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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by w00dsy »

Exar Kun wrote: I'd much prefer to read or watch something about Senna than Prost.


there was a good line that Nigel Roebuck said in this video where he said when you watched Prost he made it look like you could do it too, but when you watched Senna it made you realise you couldn't.



Slightly related, there's a good Teds Notebook on the cars Senna raced for McLaren

[youtube] [/youtube]
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by w00dsy »

Jamo wrote:Jimmy Clarks death was the beginning of the end of Grand Prix Racing (as opposed to Formula 1) JYS went on his crusade and boom, kaput. Think about it within 5/10 years all the Classic Motor Racing circuits were gone. Money quickly became the driving factor and (comparatively) it all went to shit.

Ayrton Senna himself all but finished it as a legitimate Sport in my opinion with his behavior and his eventual death swept away the tattered remnants of it.

i tend to see it that it went from an amatuer to a professional sport. And when Senna died was when they finally took driver safety seriously. Stewart did a lot but losing the biggest name in the sport on live tv tends to wake people up.
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by w00dsy »

anyone with an interest in Senna and what went wrong needs to watch these. Peter Windsor covers every aspect of what could have gone wrong, including a theory that Senna blacked out after holding his breath, a practice that he apparently did to heighten his senses during qualifying.

[youtube] [/youtube]
[youtube] [/youtube]
[youtube] [/youtube]
[youtube] [/youtube]
[youtube] [/youtube]
[youtube] [/youtube]
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by Big Kev »

Big PR fail for Ferrari.
Their daily 'it happened today' tweet is the fact they won at Imola
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by Vilante »

Thanks Woodsy. I've been listening to this and watching the race. Hearing Walker choking back tears at the restart of the race is just too much.
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by w00dsy »

Big Kev wrote:Big PR fail for Ferrari.
Their daily 'it happened today' tweet is the fact they won at Imola
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


:doh:
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by Woodee »

I posted this on my blog:
I am sure there will be many more posts like these marking 20 years since one of the darkest days in motorsport in my recent memory.

I started watching F1 in 1992 when Nigel Mansell would claim the championship that year. My interest in the sport gained throughout 1993 with only a vague idea in what it was all about and what drivers were in the series. As a brit I had a keen interest to see Damon Hill do well.

The famous names in the sport didn’t mean a lot to me, I had no idea of the championships, rivalries, controversies of the years previous.

In May of 1994 I would have been 14 years old and it had become a regular thing for me now to settle in front of the TV and watch the formula 1 races. By then I had more of an idea what it was all about. I had only followed two wheeled motorsport up to that point.

I did not witness Roland Ratzenberger’s crash that claimed his life, nor at the time did it really affect me. Death in motorsport was not a common thing, so it was not like I was used to hearing about it.

I had read a little about Ayrton and his history with McLaren and his move to Williams for the first time, so I was very interested to see what he was all about. Probably no coincidence that I was probably more interested in following his team mate, Damon Hill, at that time.

Now many people say when tragic events occur, that they can remember vividly where they were, what they were doing and how they felt. I am not even entirely sure I saw Ayrton’s accident, it feels so long ago…a distant memory.

Throughout the 1994 season I became engrossed in the sport more and more, and witnessing more accidents. Such as Karl Wendlinger at Monaco who has since recovered.

It wasn’t till I reached college age in around 1998 that death in motorsport and in other forms of entertainment began to affect me more and more. For my college project I produced a 3d rendered tribute to Ayrton spliced with what footage I could find of his past races. I still have to yet to retrieve the copy of my video from my backup discs, I don’t even think I have watched it for many many years.

Looking back, 1994 was a very dark year for me personally. We would lose Roland Ratzenberger, Ayrton Senna, Kurt Cobain and Brandon Lee (the year previous). Death has an affect on a lot of us very differently. Many will mourn by themselves, others will seek solace in words, music and pictures. I believe it makes us truly appreciate what we have and the little time we are here to leave our mark on the world.

Take this day to remember those you have lost, those that are in pain or suffer needlessly. Take comfort in those around you and mend those bridges that were once burned as you may never get the chance to do so.

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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by richo »

Thanks Woodsy
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by Jamo »

norbs wrote:You'd rather half a dozen blokes died each year for the entertainment benefit of the spectators? :(
No of course not but they've just f*cked with it way too much. I equate it with tight rope walking, if that bloke crossing the Grand Canyon had a parachute what would be the point? No one would watch.
The drivers used to push the limits without a net, now they've a parachute, a net, a pillow and a big ass motherf*cking inflatable mattress underneath them as well. It's taken everything away.

This whole discussion actually had me thinking of a post I did a decade ago on the 10th anniversary of Imola. People were saying how great Formula 1 was since and this baffled me and I asked for a single improvement. Safety was the only one they could come up with. I managed to find my original reply and I agree with most all of it and damned if I wasn't right about what's happened since then.

(A long time ago on a Bulletin Board far, far away)

"Ah safety. Who does increased safety benefit? Other than of course the pampered millionaire at the wheel and his family and friends certainly not the spectator. Safety is the cancer that has decimated Formula 1 and by force of association other forms of circuit racing. Imagine if the nonsense that has been done in the form of safety was done to lets say WRC, hell lets chop down that Forrest because a car might hit a tree! Oh we can't do that cause the greenies will have a fit, next years event is in a car park! Those Red Bull Air Races are more dangerous than F1 ever has been, surely they should be banned outright!!!

There are still in this nannified day and age plenty of sports out there in which a mistake, stupid or otherwise equates to serious injury or death. Is Formula 1 so much greater than them? When every venue is the same 'Sea of Asphalt' I wonder what will be said then about Safety?

It's pathetic that the one thing that could slow the cars down dramatically and at the same time make them vastly more visually appealing and visceral to watch would be removal of Wings. This would be the ultimate safety move, mid corner speed (the most dangerous part) would be vastly reduced and the spectacle would be greatly improved. But it won't be done for one reason.... Money. If at the same time Power is increased not decreased altering the balance of grunt/grip firmly into the former. Address the brakes which are ridiculously effective and make them more realistic. Wow all of a sudden they can trail each other through corners and pass at the next one!!! Along with really sorting the men from the boys this would make truly gifted drivers really stand out, to the eye as well as the timesheet. Now that's a Formula I'd happily watch, pity all the proper circuits are gone however thanks to Safety....

In Summary.

Why was it acceptable for Juan Fangio to turn the car in mid air at 150MPH to make a corner at the Nordschleife with nothing but earthen banks for welcome if he gets it wrong?

Why was it acceptable for Jimmy Clark to start to run out of puff at over 200MPH on the back stretch to Stavelot with nothing but barbed wire fences and quaint farm houses waiting for him?

Why was it acceptable for Ronnie & later Gilles to throw their cars around at slip angles that their designers and some would say almost the laws of physics prohibit and do it time and time again. The safety measures in place at that time were probably worse than nothing. It didn't stop them though.

Let me reiterate that there is nothing at all wrong with safety parse, it is in fact an important goal. But it has been overdone to the point of absolute stupidity. It is all but universally accepted that there are basically only two mighty or 'mega' (as the drivers would say) corners left in F1, well one now. 130R at Suzuka and Eau Rouge at Spa. In fact both of these corners are a pale shadow of what they once were. 130R has been reprofiled and widened so much that it's basically no longer a sweeper it's more of a kink easily flat. Eau Rouge has been absolutely butchered, it's basically a left/right kink these days with a dip in it. That BAR nonsense a few years back with JV & Zonta where they intentionally kept their foot flat in a poor chassis and absolutely destroyed their cars and thought it was funny really underlined what a joke the premier category had become"
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by Dr. Pain »

You have to keep in mind too that the current cars especially last year's and before that do greatly benefit from a much better understanding of aerodynamics and the part the floor plays in it but also the tyre advancement. This has tamed many if not all of the great corners even though they have been re profiled. We now have go cart tracks to try and keep it interesting as the older style of track unmodified would be utterly dull.
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by DexterPunk »

Jamo wrote:
norbs wrote:You'd rather half a dozen blokes died each year for the entertainment benefit of the spectators? :(
No of course not but they've just f*cked with it way too much. I equate it with tight rope walking, if that bloke crossing the Grand Canyon had a parachute what would be the point? No one would watch.
The drivers used to push the limits without a net, now they've a parachute, a net, a pillow and a big ass motherf*cking inflatable mattress underneath them as well. It's taken everything away.

This whole discussion actually had me thinking of a post I did a decade ago on the 10th anniversary of Imola. People were saying how great Formula 1 was since and this baffled me and I asked for a single improvement. Safety was the only one they could come up with. I managed to find my original reply and I agree with most all of it and damned if I wasn't right about what's happened since then.

(A long time ago on a Bulletin Board far, far away)

"Ah safety. Who does increased safety benefit? Other than of course the pampered millionaire at the wheel and his family and friends certainly not the spectator. Safety is the cancer that has decimated Formula 1 and by force of association other forms of circuit racing. Imagine if the nonsense that has been done in the form of safety was done to lets say WRC, hell lets chop down that Forrest because a car might hit a tree! Oh we can't do that cause the greenies will have a fit, next years event is in a car park! Those Red Bull Air Races are more dangerous than F1 ever has been, surely they should be banned outright!!!

There are still in this nannified day and age plenty of sports out there in which a mistake, stupid or otherwise equates to serious injury or death. Is Formula 1 so much greater than them? When every venue is the same 'Sea of Asphalt' I wonder what will be said then about Safety?

It's pathetic that the one thing that could slow the cars down dramatically and at the same time make them vastly more visually appealing and visceral to watch would be removal of Wings. This would be the ultimate safety move, mid corner speed (the most dangerous part) would be vastly reduced and the spectacle would be greatly improved. But it won't be done for one reason.... Money. If at the same time Power is increased not decreased altering the balance of grunt/grip firmly into the former. Address the brakes which are ridiculously effective and make them more realistic. Wow all of a sudden they can trail each other through corners and pass at the next one!!! Along with really sorting the men from the boys this would make truly gifted drivers really stand out, to the eye as well as the timesheet. Now that's a Formula I'd happily watch, pity all the proper circuits are gone however thanks to Safety....

In Summary.

Why was it acceptable for Juan Fangio to turn the car in mid air at 150MPH to make a corner at the Nordschleife with nothing but earthen banks for welcome if he gets it wrong?

Why was it acceptable for Jimmy Clark to start to run out of puff at over 200MPH on the back stretch to Stavelot with nothing but barbed wire fences and quaint farm houses waiting for him?

Why was it acceptable for Ronnie & later Gilles to throw their cars around at slip angles that their designers and some would say almost the laws of physics prohibit and do it time and time again. The safety measures in place at that time were probably worse than nothing. It didn't stop them though.

Let me reiterate that there is nothing at all wrong with safety parse, it is in fact an important goal. But it has been overdone to the point of absolute stupidity. It is all but universally accepted that there are basically only two mighty or 'mega' (as the drivers would say) corners left in F1, well one now. 130R at Suzuka and Eau Rouge at Spa. In fact both of these corners are a pale shadow of what they once were. 130R has been reprofiled and widened so much that it's basically no longer a sweeper it's more of a kink easily flat. Eau Rouge has been absolutely butchered, it's basically a left/right kink these days with a dip in it. That BAR nonsense a few years back with JV & Zonta where they intentionally kept their foot flat in a poor chassis and absolutely destroyed their cars and thought it was funny really underlined what a joke the premier category had become"
This whole post is ridiculous.


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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by NeilPearson »

I watch Formula One For the racing, not having people on the ragged edge of death
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by J.D. »

Big Kev wrote:Big PR fail for Ferrari.
Their daily 'it happened today' tweet is the fact they won at Imola
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sorry to sidetrack this but Porsche almost did the same thing with this thinly disguised and extremely corny advertisement:

[youtube] [/youtube]

"...struggled, hoped and suffered but never gave up". Oh god. I was waiting for "through the triumph and the tears..." What a load of schmaltz.

Oh yeah, Allan Simonsen died... um, yeah, okay...

You either make it an advertisement or you don't. You either make it a tribute to someone else's driver or you don't. It's a no-win situation best avoided altogether. From my point of view, not as bad as a relatively insignificant win by Ferrari 20 years ago but this is a minefield best unentered...
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by J.D. »

Jamo wrote:It's pathetic that the one thing that could slow the cars down dramatically and at the same time make them vastly more visually appealing and visceral to watch would be removal of Wings.
Probably the only thing you and I will ever agree on. Everyone else here knows what I think of Formula 1 aerodynamics (make them pass a stability test). My long term beliefs on the inadequacy of aero regulations started with a seed planted during the inquest into Senna's death when an engineer described his car as being "unstable about all three axes". Wings will eventually have to go.
Why was it acceptable for Juan Fangio to turn the car in mid air at 150MPH to make a corner at the Nordschleife with nothing but earthen banks for welcome if he gets it wrong?

Why was it acceptable for Jimmy Clark to start to run out of puff at over 200MPH on the back stretch to Stavelot with nothing but barbed wire fences and quaint farm houses waiting for him?

Why was it acceptable for Ronnie & later Gilles to throw their cars around at slip angles that their designers and some would say almost the laws of physics prohibit and do it time and time again. The safety measures in place at that time were probably worse than nothing. It didn't stop them though.
Same reason safety is an ongoing issue. The rulemakers are idiots who don't understand the laws of physics and are controlled by pecuniary interests. Their rules are reactive instead of proactive. Wings will stay for the same reason airboxes will stay: advertising space.
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

Post by Exar Kun »

Jamo wrote:
(A long time ago on a Bulletin Board far, far away)
So how's AtlasF1 treating you these days, Bernd? :p

I agree that the best thing they could do for aero whilst keeping the cars fast but also allow them to race closely is ditch front and rear wings and allow under-car wings again (ground effect). It'd kill off revenue for the teams big time, however. Look at the start of the race when we're watching the cars from head on and what can we see? The sponsors on the wings. All the shots of them coming down the straights for long, long seconds. The sponsors on the wings again. It's a business and they'll never forgo those particular billboards.
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Re: Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna

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Illustration: Ayrton Senna’s formula cars

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