New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

[ysu]

I'll write a longer review - answering all you questions - as soon as I have time

[Exar Kun]

What's the issue with different pads front and rear? I've run DS2500s on my fronts and stock on rear every time and no problems. Sensors are picking up on wheel speed.

Glad track day went well. Good fluid is a must. Did you turn off the nannies?

Sent from my HTC 2PS6200 using Tapatalk

[ysu]

Allright, let's start with the questions

What was the format like, 10-15 minute runs with some cool down in between? I'm a little bit concerned about hot oil temps, particularly up in the heat here but that's sort of how they run the day up here, warm up lap, 3-4 hot laps then a cool down lap and then probably 30 minutes before the next run.

The format here was 12 minute sessions in 4 groups rotating, so about 1x12min session in an hour overall. The oil temps were up to 126 C regularly by the end of the session. This was a bloody cold day, too, 10C max. So yes, it rung a bit hot, and oil cooler maybe an idea down the track. Talking to Chris, he runs 5W-30 instead of 0W-20 that maybe a good idea too. (he runs an oil cooler in every one of his racing 86's, still on top of that)
But since the sessions were short, the car serviced fresh, it wasn't too big an issue.

How did the stock tyres hold up? I'm assuming with the camber they should have been ok.

Perfectly fine, not a problem. I couldn't see anything wrong with the tyres after the 7 sessions.

I read it somewhere that when the stock brake pads seem to fade it's actually not really fade but pad material starting to degrade. Not sure if that's what was happening with yours but probably best to get the new ones in asap.

If/when I have even more time (prolly wkend) I'll take the tyres off and have a look at the pads, it maybe, I've read that too.

What's the issue with different pads front and rear? I've run DS2500s on my fronts and stock on rear every time and no problems. Sensors are picking up on wheel speed.

read up on the links, ex. It may not happen to you if you don't run into those specific situations. It's something that the electronics are going a bit bonkers when the whole system is stressed. But it maybe a very small chance on a very specific situation if/when you're driving very hard...so it may not ever happen to you or other people around here.

Glad track day went well. Good fluid is a must. Did you turn off the nannies?

Ok, so it's time for the story - next post coming.

[ysu]

Firstly, the day started extremely friggen cold and miserable, it was around 7 degrees, drizzle on and off, and strong, biting cold wind.
I've turned up early, I had a great spot under cover.
I was probably the only fully stock car

I only took a few essentials, and it turns out I really did not need them - plus everyone around had tools & stuff. What no-one has, and I've been told a good idea to bring is spare brake pads. (and maybe fluids) Especially if it's a weekend day - no shops are open! If you run out of pads, you're fucked.

Anyway, first I had to sign in. I got a lap-timer gizmo, which did the same job my Harry's Laptimer did, except the results are online, not on my phone, but hey, it's official Altho it only gives me the fastest lap, not all the laps so it's not as good in fact.

Then a bit later a driver's briefing. Freezing fkin cold.

by the way this even was with the TrackSchool guys, I can highly recommend them. Good value for money (i.e. pretty cheap) and really friendly bunch. You can even hire a car with them for the day, they have a few prepped cars there, from mx5 to V8. The whole atmosphere was really nice & friendly.

First the red group went out in their track monsters (corvette, porsche, racing V8 Ute, that sort), then the orange - experienced, fast guys still - then the rookies like me, then another group of more experienced guys. Each group had about 15 cars.

I've been advised, due to the greasy moist track - and mostly due to my utter lack of experience, - to leave the TC on. I could not 100% abide by that, so I did the 'VSC sport' button, which tunes the TC down, but still holds your hand. Boy, was it a good decision. Early on cars were spinning our everywhere, this little car has saved my arse a few times I reckon.

About halfway through the session and still in great excitement I've started noticing things. Eg I haven't bloody once looked in my mirror for the first few laps, I've realised. Even tho I've been told to do it.

The second session I've asked for an instructor to ride with me, and he noted my good lines & bad braking habits I needed to jump on the brakes, not nurse them - so essentially I was using them reversed.
Other than that I did not let the steering input out enough coming out of the corners; this has caused most of the sliding-out of the rear.

After this, the track got slowly better as the day went on, I got a few clear runs and slowly that puddle in the last corner have started to disappear too. I've started gaining confidence, Overshot corners a couple of times (hehe) - nothing major, mind you - and realised how fast this little car is on the track. I've not really been overtaken when I wasn't held up. But when I was held up by people who'd not admit that I'm faster overall, thus not waving me past, I was doomed. There was a chap I caught up to twice in one session. After he wouldn't let me go the first time, I eased off, let him have nearly a full front straight's lead. I caught up to him by the next time around we came onto the straight. He still did not get it. But I did not have the straight line acceleration to get past him. Bit annoying. But then the session has ended, and I knew he was in the blue RX7 so I've made sure I'm in front of him from there on

My best lap (I'm sure everyone's excited to know) was a 1:16.5. Chris told me it's not a time to be ashamed of, first time out and on a greasy track - in an automatic. He reckons 14's are doable on a dry track, knowing the stock manual car does high 13's. So I'm pretty happy with that. Later I got a few better half-runs as the track got a bit drier and me a bit more "experienced", my theoretical best is a 1:16.3.

I've also been told to hold off on upgrades in their opinion because I don't really know the limits of the car as it is, so spending on tyres that I can't use fully anyway, is a bit of a waste. Seat time is what I need.
I can agree. The car is very capable as it is. The only thing missing is the straight line grunt to get past the rest of the field
In corners, it's king.

I've realised how much harder it is to do it on the track in your car compared to the armchair at home. And also how much more fun!

Used up a considerable amount of fuel, about 3/4 tank - another thing that maybe handy to take to the day if there is more track time!

Other than that I've been told that I've the perfect car for track fun. You barely need to modify anything on it to have a good track car, it's cheap and again, very capable.

I had a great moment when I caught up to a guy in a grey car, and he seemed like 'race on' and pushed hard, instead of waving me past. Half a lap later I've seen his face with a weird expression on it as he went spinning. I have to admit, that put a great smile on my face

I've videos, I'll try and upload a couple. Yesterday I was knackered, today should be working... I'll post anything that comes to me later, it was a full on day, very exciting, fun, and let's be honest: very affordable in this form.

[ysu]

Ok, here's my very first lap, ever
Sadly the throttle & rpm data are somehow very off. I think it's lagging (or early?) but it's off nonetheless. I'll have to have a look at the obd thingo.



And the fastest lap:

[Exar Kun]

Awesome. I'd love to have a go in an 86. A 1:16 is definitely alright for a first go. My best after 3 days at Wakefield was a 15.9. Still reckon different pads are fine. No one I know bothers matching them but then mine's a FWD car where the rear brakes hardly do a thing.

I miss being on track!

Sent from my HTC 2PS6200 using Tapatalk

[ysu]

Awesome. I'd love to have a go in an 86. A 1:16 is definitely alright for a first go. My best after 3 days at Wakefield was a 15.9. Still reckon different pads are fine. No one I know bothers matching them but then mine's a FWD car where the rear brakes hardly do a thing.

I miss being on track!

Sent from my HTC 2PS6200 using Tapatalk

Ah, but this electronics issue is 86 specific as far as I know.

[ysu]

one last bit of info (if you haven't got enough already, hehe) is my laptime progression from Harry's

[Sarsippius]

Treacherous first lap! Were you getting your oil temps through HLT? Seems like it's not supported due to the custom PID. I have a dash cam for video but it might be tricky to get the overlays onto the video, might be better to use HLT for the lot on the day.

[ysu]

Well, I've got the 'petrolhead' edition, and while it's not shown on the video, it definitely shows up when you go to "race" and then "timer" in the app. Since I do not need the video output on the screen while lapping, it's perfect.
When the obdLink is connected, I get all sorts of readings, oil amongst them. It even gave me a warning on high oil temp, nice and orange

[Sarsippius]

Ok I will test it out, in Torque you need to manually add the PID to enable oil temp as this car doesn't use the standard oil temp PID. Some discussion I found on the HLT forum it wasn't supported at the time and the developer implied he wasn't in a hurry to add custom PIDs for cars, understandable but I guess it must have been added in recently.
Looks like it's also pretty straight forward to use video from external cams and add the overlay, I could probably even do PIP with the rear cam although I'm not sure if it will show anything interesting.
Did you notice how in-car video seems really slow compared to what it's like in the car? I watched some back after a bit of spirited driving I did once expecting it to look cool but it was so tame

[ysu]

Yes, it always looks very slow on videos.
I was doing nearly 160 on the straight, to me it looked like I was whizzing past the control tower. On the video I seem to be at "normal" pace, pretty much

What's pretty amazing to me is that this car pulls 1G in corners on the crappy stock tyres.

[pixelboy]

Awesome. Thanks to you blokes I'm having unnatural thoughts about getting a GT86.

[ysu]

It would be awesome to go to track days together, pix. Do it! You know you want to!

Ps if you still live around here, you aren't far off. You're more than welcome to catch up for a test drive.

[pixelboy]

Yeah I'm still in Berowra. Might take you up on that one day.

[Sarsippius]

What do you guys think about these rims? I actually like the look of the stock rims so I'm really only thinking of aftermarket to reduce the unsprung weight, I'm not going to spend $2k plus for looks alone.

The stock rims are about 10kgs each, the OZ Racing Allegerita HLT are about 7kgs (and seem to be the lightest non forged option available) but I don't like the look as much as the BBS SR, however the BBS weigh the same as stock.

I like the BBS as they are similar to stock where they are mostly dark but with the silver/grey highlights. I don't really like the look that seems fairly popular of having very dark or black rims with the white car, the titanium of the OZ rims are the only colour of the many available for that rim that I'd consider at all.

I'll stick with 17 inch but both options allow for a slightly wider tyre which won't go astray.

The OZ racing rim is really the only one I'm considering but I thought I'd show the BBS as the look is what I prefer. The OZ racing ticks all the boxes as far as I can tell, not too expensive, well regarded and very light but I'm just not sure on the look. Any opinions? They're sold by Bridgestone and Beaurepaires so hopefully I can have a look at some in person.

by the way Pix, not sure how serious you are but of course I recommend the car

[ysu]

Yeah getting decent wheels in Australia is hard. I am on the very same page, I just want a set of light wheels, maybe 17x8 so I can chuck 235's on if I want to. (But after talking to Chris on the track I might just to stick with stock width - he reckons it's perfect for track)

Bit of help: http://www.supraforums.com.au/forum/top ... l-weights/

These are the lightweight wheels around - pretty much none of them available, LOL. (below is the list of all the sub-16lbs, or very close to 16 ones)

I was thinking of a set of Enkei RPF-1s after all, they can be had for about $1400 a set, and still decent weight at around 7-8kgs (reports differ).
The OZ ones are great, but they're pricey. Well, most good ones are pricey, the better the more expensive. Importmonster used to have some occasionally.
There's a set of Racing Hart for a grand, but there's a repaired one amongst them so they've seen a lot of hard use...I would not dare to put that on my car.
The cheap option I was chasing but can't find is the Kosei K4R or K5R - but it's just non-existent in Australia it seems. It's reported to be 15.8 lbs (the k4r) in the stock size.


5Zigen Becket FN-01R Forged 17x8 14.7 lbs / 6.7kgs
Advan Racing RG Cast 17x8.5 16.5
Buddy Club P1 QF Forged 17x8 13.6 lbs
Dymag Callaway Corvette Cast Mg 17x8 12.9 lbs
Enkei Bortex MII (RPM-2) Cast 17x8 16.2
Fikse FM-5 Forged/Spun 17x8.5 16.0
J's Racing PR 6 Forged Mg 17x8.5 13.6 lbs
Kyoho Tracer Cast 17x8 15.6
Mugen MF10 Forged 17x8.5 16.0
OZ Superleggera Cast 17x8 15.9
Racing Hart CP-035R SSF 17x8 13.6 lbs
Racing Hart CP-035R SSF 17x8.5 14.4 lbs
Racing Sparco NT-R Cast 17x8 16.7
SSR Type-C (called Competitions in the US) SSF 17x8 14.3 lbs
Starform Real Racing Model II Forged 17x8.5 14.1 lbs
Starform Real Racing R2 Forged 17x8.5 14.8 lbs
Stern Aguzze-S07R Forged 17x8 14.0 lbs
Tecnomagnesio MT 5B2 Cast Mg 17x8 16.3
Wed's TC-005 SSF 17x8 14.9 lbs
Work Emotion Forged 17x7.5 15.3 lbs
Work Emotion Forged 17x8.5 16.2

[Sarsippius]

Cool thanks for the list, the OZ rims seemed good value vs forged BBS rims around $800-$1,200 a corner. So are you mostly looking second hand? Called a few places and it seems no OZ rims locally to have a look at, all just regular alloy brands which weigh similar or more than the stock rims. I found some pics of the OZ rims and seem to be the same colour too
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59057

I think similar to what you're saying, keeping close to the stock size and width is better, 17" x 7-8" & 48mm offset. I figure keep the offset the same so it doesn't impact the handling and with these widths I'd be surprised if there's any fitment issues, 8" is only going to mean a bit over a centimetre each side. Given that 225/45 R17's will fit 7.5" and 8" widths I'm wondering if there's any point to go 8"?

[pixelboy]

I'm keen sarsi but a number of things need to fall into place to make it happen.. Will probably be a second hand 2014 ish model if it happens.

[ysu]

Cool thanks for the list, the OZ rims seemed good value vs forged BBS rims around $800-$1,200 a corner. So are you mostly looking second hand? Called a few places and it seems no OZ rims locally to have a look at, all just regular alloy brands which weigh similar or more than the stock rims. I found some pics of the OZ rims and seem to be the same colour too
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59057

I think similar to what you're saying, keeping close to the stock size and width is better, 17" x 7-8" & 48mm offset. I figure keep the offset the same so it doesn't impact the handling and with these widths I'd be surprised if there's any fitment issues, 8" is only going to mean a bit over a centimetre each side. Given that 225/45 R17's will fit 7.5" and 8" widths I'm wondering if there's any point to go 8"?

For fitment, - and for some weights, - check this thread, it's a goldmine: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7535

The 8" is only interesting if you want to go up to 235 or 245. Otherwise it's detrimental (as it's heavier). But on the US forum, the speedy guys said the sweet spot for tracking is the 235. EDIT: wrong. 225. So I'm torn.... But currently leaning towards the 7" wide ones.

I've also found these guys http://transamraceengineering.com/ and they sell some wheels for tracking - but I could not get the weight out of them, yet, they simply said the offset is not right, but did not give me a weight, even though they may manufacture different ones next year...weird kinda support. I'm trying again, hoping for some good numbers, because they sell our size $300 ea.
Edit: wait, the weight is on their site, silly me...I've found them on facebook, originally. Ok nevermind this, it's heavier than stock :/

Oh, by the way, Chris said he is regularly giving away his 2nd hand race rubber...which is still good for a couple of track days

[ysu]

I'm keen sarsi but a number of things need to fall into place to make it happen.. Will probably be a second hand 2014 ish model if it happens.

You can get very nice ones (GTS) for around $25K. It's not an expensive car at all.

[Sarsippius]

If you only want a track toy/weekend car then a manual GT is probably even cheaper although you'd need to factor in possibly upgrading the 16" rims to 17" (a good thing if you would upgrade the rims anyway). Also check re the LSD but I think it was only GT Autos that didn't have the LSD originally.

Oh, by the way, Chris said he is regularly giving away his 2nd hand race rubber...which is still good for a couple of track days

Advantages of living in the big smoke

[ysu]

Sorry, I was wrong. I've looked it up, not 235, but 225 is the width most recommended for track days. And while you can squeeze the 225 on the 7 wide rim, but it's not optimal; a 7.5 is.
So really, a 17x7 with 215 (stock width) is good. 7.5 with 225 is the optimal. But that extra 10mm won't make that much of a difference in my opinion. A good rubber will.

[ysu]

Awright...I had time to take the tyres off now, and have a closer look at things. It's surprising and very educational.
(whole album here)


Let's start off with the tyres (front) - they've seen a bit of use, huh?



And how the disc & pad should look - the rears:





And now the sobering truth about the track day pressure - the fronts.
No, those are not grooves on the disc, they are brake-pad material. Burnt & melted pad material.
Also, the edge of the disc is completely white - I'd say it got pretty darn hot







The fluid does not look too good, either.


I've sanded back the pads, they're still usable-ish. They have seen the fires of hell, cracked and battered



They wouldn't withstand another day like this. Their thickness was ~9.7mm before the day. Now they are 4.5-6mm only (unevenly worn). Half is gone!
They'll be good as spares.

So yeah, after this test (I really had to see it myself) I'd strongly recommend replacing pads & fluid for tracking, especially if they're not in pristine condition as these were.

[Sarsippius]

Thanks for the pics, completely justifies the pad and fluid upgrade.

Back to rims for a sec I think I'm just about decided on either Enkei RPF1 in SBC or the Enkei RSM9 in Platinum Silver. The RPF1 are a touch lighter and also cheaper but SBC is not common and I feel the Platinum Silver looks a little better on the white car, neither are ideal looks wise for me but coupled with the weight saving will do the job. Unfortunately they're the more expensive colour options in their range and may be limited in sizes available, moreso the RPF1 SBC.

Where did you see the RPF1's for sale ysu? These guys seem to be the only ones I could find http://www.autotechnik.com.au/

by the way do you know if the stock tyres would fit on a 7.5 or 8" width rim?