New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

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Exar Kun
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by Exar Kun »

New Supra is platform shared with new BMW Z4. BMW make the convertible and Toyota get the coupe.

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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by ysu »

hm...I can see my upgrade path :D
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by ysu »

I think you're right on the money, it looks like they had this new supra planned all along - and it'll be the 86 on steroids (and better construction).
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new- ... aunch-date

I'd say it'll have around 300kW. They refer to this little beast in the article:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/fran ... furt-debut
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by crimespree »

I disagree the 86 is inherently weak, any modern car and curbs don't mix. They're certainly not solid but they have proven to hold up well.
The MCA 86 is completely stock underneath and puts massive forces through all stock arms and rubber bushes etc, it has continually lapped it up..
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by Sarsippius »



I did another lap sprint day over the weekend, was a pretty good day all up, three 15-20 minute sessions. It was the sponsors day which is the same day I did last year, it's more laid back with people who race in the HQ Holdens, Commodore Cup and Improved Production categories taking their sponsors for hot laps and then more open lap sprint sessions. I didn't realise but the normal lap sprint days when the race categories are racing it's more of a competition and a session is only three laps, an out lap, a hot lap and then a cool down lap. I don't think I'll bother with any of those days as with three sessions you effectively get three hot laps for a whole day.

Things I learned on the day, the auto is effectively a four speed gearbox on the track with the gears being too far apart, especially 2nd to 3rd. You'll notice on a few corners I'm changing down from 3rd to 2nd as I get back on the power, 3rd is too tall to power out of the turn but 2nd is too short to shift down to on entry.

My first track day was basically a stock engine, this time it was with the UEL Header and E85, top speed last time was 173kph, this time 187kph so a good 15kph difference. My best lap last time was a 1:36.26, this time a 1:30.86 :D

The ABS is a bit of a pain, I don't like the way it makes the front end shudder which made me a bit tentative trail braking. I had planned to do the pedal dance but didn't, I haven't actually tried to do it yet so I'll probably give it a try next time after some practice so I can do it quickly and reliably.

The Winmax W3 pads hold up really well, they weren't super long sessions but I had no fade at all, I do have Project Mu race fluid in as well.

I'm very happy with the overall balance I've got with the MCA shocks set to 4 on the front and 6 on the rear (they go from 0-12, hard to soft). It would probably be considered a bit loose, turns in nicely off throttle or on the brakes and turns well on exit as well needing to be a little careful not to spin the rears. I did have a little bit of a hairy moment at the T7 fast right hander, it doesn't come across in the video but I carried a bit more speed and the car was quite happy to keep rotating. I'd probably have soften the rear a couple clicks for anyone less experienced.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it but I had done part of my oil cooler install some time ago, hooking the main part into the coolant line. I hooked up the oil lines and sandwich plate the week before last, not without some hiccups but it's all in now and seems to be working well. The first two sessions I did I just had Torque on the phone monitoring temps, first session I was only at say 80% and the oil temps got to 110C, second session I was pushing harder and they peaked around 115C. I was happy with that but you'll see in the video I pushed hard for 2-3 laps then backed off for a lap before going again just to be on the safe side and not push temps any higher. A normal cooler would keep things cooler but it's done what I wanted, to be able to stay with the stock oil and do some laps without temps getting too high.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by DexterPunk »

Sars, how difficult is it to get e85 going? Do you have a flexi fuel rig? What brand etc?

Still waiting on my car, due early this month. But wouldn't mind taking it on a track day now and then. I'm guessing some different brake fluid is a must?


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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by crimespree »

DexterPunk wrote:Sars, how difficult is it to get e85 going? Do you have a flexi fuel rig? What brand etc?

Still waiting on my car, due early this month. But wouldn't mind taking it on a track day now and then. I'm guessing some different brake fluid is a must?


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E85 just requires a retune. Easiest and best to avoid flex setup if you have easy access to e85.
Standard brakes will may be ok for a first track day but best to swap for something superior at $15 a bottle for example.


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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by DexterPunk »

crimespree wrote:
DexterPunk wrote:Sars, how difficult is it to get e85 going? Do you have a flexi fuel rig? What brand etc?

Still waiting on my car, due early this month. But wouldn't mind taking it on a track day now and then. I'm guessing some different brake fluid is a must?


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E85 just requires a retune. Easiest and best to avoid flex setup if you have easy access to e85.
Standard brakes will may be ok for a first track day but best to swap for something superior at $15 a bottle for example.


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There's a servo with e85 right near me which is convenient. But I'm more worried about road trips where it won't be an option.

I read somewhere that running on 95/98 after an e85 tune is not a very good idea. And that Flexi is better because putting regular fuel through the car now and then prevents corrosion. Or is there a way to manually switch back and forth between tunes somehow? I'm a noob when it comes to all this.


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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by Sarsippius »

It's not that difficult to go e85 but you need to consider a few things, first there's diy options, either a Tactrix cable ($250-300) with ECUflash (free) on a laptop or the Open Flash Tablet (USD 500). With either you need to source a tune either from Open Flash or from someone like I did, a guy in Qld who's a bit more of a hobbyist than a professional tuner. These are like base tunes that will work across many engines but not be tuned specific to your car. One advantage of going this way is you can flash back and forth between tunes as you like if you switch between e85 or 98 for instance.

If you go to a real tuner then they can do a custom tune or they might sell base tunes (often called etunes), they will typically use ECUtek or brzEdit as the tune will be locked, protecting their work. They can do the flashing for you or if you buy a ECUtek cable (expensive) or a Tactrix cable plus brzEdit license (~$400 for license) they may provide the tunes so you can flash back and forth yourself.

The tactrix diy option is the cheapest and you can go back to the stock rom pretty easily. Being in Melbourne you probably have some good options as far as tuners go so it might be worth going that route. Being under warranty you probably want to be able to go back to stock before taking the car in for services or any warranty work just in case.

For your brakes I'd kinda assume your pads are decent given you've got a brembo kit, the stock pads won't handle a track day safely. Fluid like crimespree says might handle a track day but you'd want to bleed or flush immediately after so it might be better to just use good fluid from the get go.

If you've got more questions about tunes just ask as it's a bit hard to cover everything in a single post.

Edit: You posted while I was typing, I don't know about corrosion, maybe it's because e85 is hydroscopic but I'm not sure how big a problem it would be if your filling up regularly. A flex tune just allows you to go back and forth between e85 and regular and is really just a convenience thing vs flashing back and forth between tunes.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by DexterPunk »

I'm sure in time further questions will come. I was hoping to get out on track with the car by October. But I'll see how I got. I'll need to get an extinguisher mounted first. It looks like it's pretty easy to make your own bracket and fit one under the passenger seat. And a helmet is the other thing. I spoke to Sambo about that, and I think I need to re-evaluate the money I should expect to pay for one :D

I read that the ethanol attracts water molecules from the air, and over time you have more corrosion. Which is why one article said that using regular fuel in your car is a good idea now and then.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by Sarsippius »

I don't think you'll be fitting a fire extinguisher under the seat, maybe in front or behind. Actually instead of installing the bracket you could probably lie it behind the seat and then move it all the way back to hold it there. I guess any track days that require a fire extinguisher would require it properly mounted though.

For a helmet I don't think you need anything fancy, all you need is something that's to Australian Standards as far as I know, I just use a motorbike helmet my father in-law isn't using.

Something else I forgot to mention I figured out on my track day, the scrutineer guy suggested I get a tow hook seeing as I'd been down there a few times. I started googling and realised there's a tow hook in the boot, I popped the front cover in the bumper and screwed it in :)

Honestly I'd suggest just living with the car for a while before thinking about tunes and that sort of thing but I would suggest checking out the ft86club forum and reading up on it all.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by DexterPunk »

Yeah the extinguisher has to be properly secured. Do you think under the seat wouldn't have enough clearance? I did initially think that $400-500 should do me for a helmet. Sam said it's one area that he really discourages people skimping on, and I can see his point if i'm honest. I don't plan on crashing my brand new car, but who does at a track day? He suggested I should look at a HANS as well. Which is probably well worth it. But that means harnesses and some more serious $$$.

Yeah I won't be in a rush to mod it. Before I can track the car, I need to break it in which is 1000km. The first thing I'll look into is tyres anyway. I've got an FT86club login, and read bits and pieces from time to time.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by Sarsippius »

I actually had a bit of a look at fire extinguishers yesterday, you can make up a bit of a bracket to attach to the seat rail and mount it either in front or behind the seat. There is some universal bracket called Braketeer I found but then some guys have mounted an extinguisher in the centre console which almost looks like it's designed for that purpose. This is what I might do if I ever decide to go that way.

With the helmet I think it's really a personal thing, I mean how hard are you really going to be pushing it on track and people ride motorbikes on the road with just a helmet and some protective gear, I'd consider that far more dangerous.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

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Sarsippius wrote:I'd consider that far more dangerous.

Yeah so would I. And HANS complicates things massively. Getting a harness into the car that's compatible with a HANS device looks impossible without bolting in a harness bar that pretty much renders the rear seats useless. Not that the rear seats are any good for passengers anyway, but I'd probably like to have something that can be installed in and out of the car fairly easily.

The other solution I've seen is a harness bar that mounts in the boot, you lay the rear seats down to hook up the harness.
http://www.importmonster.com.au/shop/pr ... cecf8374d6

I'm not sure though if this would be an approved solution, because as far as I know you really should be using the existing seat belt bolt points, as they are all tested properly to some pretty extreme conditions.

There's a 3 point harness by Schroth that is meant to be very good with anti submarining, and mounts to an existing rear seatbelt point. But their site says it's not compatible with HANS. Even though someone posted on FT86 that it works fine.
I don't mind the idea of a harness though, just to keep yourself planted in the seat properly and not having to brace yourself to stop moving about.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by ysu »

Hey guys, just got back from holidays and this thread got busy. :) Nice!

I read the chat about brake fluid; Sarsi, don't go out on the stock fluid for more than a few laps. One or two 10-minute session maybe ok-ish. It's a dot3 fluid, simply not capable of withstanding a full track day. I know, I've tried. After a few runs the brakes got very mushy, as the fluid boiled I think. Get some dot4 fluid, it costs a few bucks only, and replace it after a few track days. There's no need to buy $40/bottle wonder-fluids, the supercheap auto's super dot 4 is perfect. Comes in yellow bottles. ... this one: http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Produc ... 00mL/33147

Do not buy dot5, that's not compatible.


On a HANS device: it maybe a good idea, but it maybe an overkill for the occasional track day. You can also get a new type of HANS device, that rests on the shoulder and has some straps on your upper body, not mounted to the seat. The instructors at wakefield park use it, but I don't have any further info on it.

Reminds me: Last time I was out a few weeks ago a BRZ stacked it into the barrier at T5 at eastern creek GP. I only saw the result from the top of the pits, but I know that the driver was unharmed. A previous day a chap almost did the same in a Toyota86, it was on the 'north' circuit, and he spun out on the S section in the back, luckily he avoided the barriers. Shit definitely *can* happen.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

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ysu wrote:On a HANS device: it maybe a good idea, but it maybe an overkill for the occasional track day. You can also get a new type of HANS device, that rests on the shoulder and has some straps on your upper body, not mounted to the seat. The instructors at wakefield park use it, but I don't have any further info on it.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

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VTRacing wrote:
ysu wrote:On a HANS device: it maybe a good idea, but it maybe an overkill for the occasional track day. You can also get a new type of HANS device, that rests on the shoulder and has some straps on your upper body, not mounted to the seat. The instructors at wakefield park use it, but I don't have any further info on it.
Simpson Hybrid. http://simpsonraceproducts.com/shop-by- ... ts/hybrid/
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New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by DexterPunk »

Awesome. Thanks guys!

Prices look reasonable too.


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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by Sarsippius »

Maybe I went a bit overboard with brake fluid, I used Project Mu G-Four 335 which is about $80 for a 1L bottle, it would be more useful I think if it came in 500mL bottles. I flushed the old fluid out before my track day last October, then bled before and after the one a few weeks ago and no discolouration that I noticed.

I think I will buy a fluid tester, I'm not sure if I should top up using the bottle I opened last year.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by ysu »

I would not use the last year's bottle, brake fluid is extremely hygroscopic. Check the wet boiling point of the fluid, I think it'll be well below 200 C. That's worse than the dot3 fluid it had in factory-default. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid
Don't worry, I've bought some Motul RBF600 fluid, too :) At least it comes in half-liter bottles. But the Nulon - which was $6/500ml bottle on sale - is perfectly good. It can take a few track days, then I bleed it, and replaced it after about 5 days (~half year). But I've not seen or felt any major changes in it.

The pad is a bigger problem for me. The forza pads are decent, but they fade a bit by the end of the 20 minute run. And now they're very near the end of their lives at about 2mm left.
I've put the earlier purchased QFM A1RM pads in, and lack of time meant I did the replacement on the track just before the runs.
Two runs were just bedding them in, then the third was when I realised that these are no track pads...I very nearly run off the track at T2 on the 2nd fast lap. I was too frustrated & tired at that point, and just packed up and came home.

I'll need to buy some Ferodo DS pads it seems. Or something else, race spec. And I'll need some new rubber, it seems a set of Nitto Nt01 is only good for one season.

But currently time is short for mucking around with the car, plus my motion sickness takes a lot away from the enjoyment. :(
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by Sarsippius »

The G-Four is rated at 221C wet so I guess it's better than the stock dot 3 dry and not far off the dot 4 dry according to the specs on that wikipedia link. I think I really need a tester as the dilemma at the moment is to top up the fluid do I use the old bottle that hasn't been re-opened since last year or crack open the second unopened 1L bottle :?

I originally envisaged going to the track more often so the G-Four made sense when I originally bought it.

For pads I would definitely recommend the Winmax W3, I wouldn't use them every day just because of any extra dust and bit of noise but they've worked perfectly for me on the track. I haven't measured or anything but they haven't seemed to have lost much pad at all from the couple days I've done. I suppose I could get the ruler out if your interested.

Once the stock pads wear out I'll get some W1s for everyday use.

Bit of a funny story related to motion sickness, I think I mentioned my wife suffers from it. The night before the last track day I'd put the pads in but we ended up going out for dinner etc. I'd planned to bed the brakes in and thought ok I'll do it now instead of getting up early the next morning. She wasn't too impressed but said ok so we went to the industrial area and I went through the process. I didn't realise it would affect her so bad, by the time I finished she was really sick with tears streaming down her face, whoops :redface:
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by ysu »

Shoot. Yeah sitting in the dark next to someone doing the break bedding exercises would bring me to tears, too. :)

That's an impressive fluid - no wonder it costs as much, hey!

Thanks for the tip on the winmax w3 pads. I'll do a bit of extra online research later, too. :)
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by Sarsippius »

This is a good description of the Winmax range, I guess with your tyres you're probably pushing the pads a bit more than I do. Do you still get into the ABS with those tyres?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68486
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by ysu »

Sarsippius wrote:This is a good description of the Winmax range, I guess with your tyres you're probably pushing the pads a bit more than I do. Do you still get into the ABS with those tyres?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68486
Thanks!
Yes, I think you'd need some really awesome slicks to not get ABS at all :) (if it's even possible!) This is but a semi slick.
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