New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by DexterPunk »

The manager called me and apologised. He acknowledged that all this should have been communicated better. He spoke to Subaru to get a slightly better deal, so I have to pay extra, but it's only about $700 or something. I'm not going to argue over that, so done deal. The car arrives at the dealership tomorrow so I should be picking it up some time this week.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by Shaun »

Thank christ for that

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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by ysu »

Sounds like a great result :)
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by Sarsippius »

Glad to hear it's all sorted and you can just look forward to getting the car :)
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

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Cheers. Yeah it hasn't been the smoothest experience that's for sure, but glad it's all sorted. I'll post pics when I grab it.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by DexterPunk »

A few pics...

ImageImageImageImage


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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by crimespree »

looks fantastic, great deal!
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by ysu »

Nice, I'm sure you'll enjoy it :)
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by Exar Kun »

Looks awesome dude

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New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by DexterPunk »

Cheers. Love how it looks... all the black accents look great. The pics don't really do it justice. It looks awesome in the flesh.

A mate is heading to Winton tomorrow and said I should come along so he could introduce me to some friends of his also with BRZ's, but unfortunately been sick the last few days and doubt I'll be feeling like making the trip.


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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

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So I bought a drop in K&N filter which doesn't fit. Seems to fit every BRZ and 86 apart from the 2017 MT (Auto is fine). I should have checked the FT86 forums first, and I would have known this. Also there are members saying that the airbox/filter on the 2017 MT car is already 30% more efficient, and dropping in a high performance filter will probably do nothing. I also saw someone mention that the header/exhaust is better on the 2017 MT. So I'm guessing very little gains to be had there as well. I'm happy enough with how it sounds stock tbh. Some boxer burble would be nice, but not sure it's worth $1000 unless i'm going to get some improvement. I suppose tyres are the best thing I can do for this car at this point. So is it worth just leaving it stock and getting a custom tune?
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by ysu »

The 2017 is better but only by 5kW iirc. A decent catless header+tune should give you around 20-30% increase, so a good 30-40Kw extra, but not just that; it smooths out the power delivery from ~3k rpm, so there's no sudden power when you get past 4.5k. This all can be felt very well.
However, I'm not sure what other changes there are on the 2017 car, and which header manufacturer have tested their headers on the 2017 car, same for tunes. Research ft86club.com before jumping into anything, and talk to manufacturers & sellers.

If you are after noise, that can be achieved by a rear end, not header. Although the header does change the sound of the car a bit, especially if you go UEL for the "wrx" noise ( yuck :) It's not boxer noise, as your current header proves it )
Front for powah, rear for noise. ;)
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

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Yeah I'm pretty good with how to make noise vs power (how that's achieved). I really don't care that much about noise to be honest. Although I must admit I do like the burble. Which is not just a WRX thing, it's the combination of the boxer engine, and UEL headers. Anyway, I really only care about improving performance. Last time I looked into UEL headers for the Impreza RS, it seemed to be the case that they actually made less power than equal length. I know the inlet manifold, airbox/filter are different on the 2017 MT. And it seems like someone has suggested the headers/exhaust are different too. Which is why I thought perhaps it's worth just going straight to a tune. A catless header may not give the same gains it has in the past. I'm sure it will improve things, but if that improvement used to be 10%, perhaps it's only 5% now? Who knows. But it may make the upgrade less attractive. Also remember that yes, it's only 5kw more than the previous versions, but that's peak power. I have no basis of comparison, but perhaps throttle response is better, and the toque dip less noticeable.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by ysu »

Apologies if I sounded condescending, it wasn't my aim. I also know the rumble isn't "wrx only", I prefer the EL header noise is all, I know a lot of people like the rumble, I was just poking you for a bit of fun, I hope you don't mind. :)

Wrt the power gain: you're right, it's peak power, and I have to admit I have not seen the torque curve. I just assumed they did not get rid of the torque dip at all (nobody seemed to be able to do that w/o replacing the stock catted header).
If the headers (or anything around the bottom) are actually different from the earlier models, then you probably don't have much choice in the matter, not yet anyway.

I'd still think that eventually removing one of the cats - especially the front one - would give pretty good performance gains, but you prolly best to research that since this model sounds quite different. It's worth to read the CSG team's posts carefully, you can also approach them, they're usually helpful and knowledgeable.

I know I've gone after the performance myself, hence my choice of the ACE 250 EL header. But even ACE has a bunch of different headers for different uses.
Normally, from what I read, on this car UEL headers were good for smoothing out the torque curve and giving more low end torque, while EL headers seem to provide more high-end, but the torque dip usually remains. Now, with the ACE ones, they seem to have achieved both, and pretty well, too. I have not dynoed mine so I can only go by 'feel', and by others' dyno charts. It did improve about a second on the quarter mile, too. But this is header + tune, I've not tried tune only.

Anyway, good luck with the research - and if there is no good header to have right now, just go for the tune & enjoy the car.

Incidentally, I would be selling my OFT if interested.
I've bought a delicious tune and while it seems a tiny bit less capable in performance (only detectable as a sub-0.1s difference on the quarter mile) I'll stick to it for the smoothness and (funny as it sounds) the healthier engine noise.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

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Definitely didn't take it as condescending. The torque dip is most definitely still there. A number of reviewers have stated the 17 MT feels a lot quicker compared to the older models than what 5kw extra should give you. Most have attributed it to the more aggressive gearing. But I do wonder if they have managed to improve the torque/power curve a bit which also helps.

I'm definitely interested in the OFT. Although at this point I'm pretty ignorant as to what it actually is (I know it's to improve the tune) and how you go about using it. I see EcuTek mentioned a lot. Does one have to be taken to a tuner and the other can be done at home? Are they even comparable.

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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by crimespree »

The OFT is just a device that is able to flash a tune to your car, The tune still need to come from somewhere, ensure it works with the 2017+ first. I recommend doing the mods you want then having it tuned properly on a dyno.

Have been having some fun in mine recently, it is now the fastest NA 86 around QR on ANY tyres & on Street tyres. It is really sticking it to many turbo 86s as well. Not bad i reckon for a track that favours more powerful cars. Tony from Coyote Tuning has tuned this thing beautifully.

I put a genuine TRD kit on it I picked up cheaply and have added an oil pressure sensor to my racecapture system. I have a sump baffle to go in after some pressure logging at our next round. I am really starting to get some benefit out of datalogging now. The latest revision MCA shocks are great.
My car is where I want it to be now and am just focusing on using it (maybe a turbo when it isn't a daily anymore!)

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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

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Looks and sounds awesome!


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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by DexterPunk »

OFT 2017 MT tunes are sort of out... there have been betas floating around for months. Looks like something official is out, but not straight forward to download them. You have to contact them if it's not a brand new OFT.

Thread here.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthre ... 03&page=11

Am I right in thinking that when people in the US talk about 93 fuel, that's equiv to our 98?

What's the difference between stage 1 and stage 2 tunes?


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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by Sarsippius »

I don't think OFT tunes are that suitable for our fuel, what I did and what ysu did initially is use tunes from a guy Wayno who you might have seen posting on ft86club. What he's done is taken the OFT tunes and modified them to be more suitable for aussie fuel, you can probably think of him as more of a hobbyist than a real tuner. With these tunes or OFT tunes you should expect to need to do some logging to see that they perform ok and potentially do some tweaking of your own if needed. It's not technically that difficult but there is a definite learning curve to it. The tune I've used performs well from what I've been able to glean a log should look like, I haven't delved into any tweaking of the tune myself. Whether Wayno will make 2017 tunes from the OFT tunes I don't know.

From memory a Stage 1 tune is just a tune for a stock car on regular fuel. A Stage 2 tune is for a car with an aftermarket EL or UEL header, regular fuel or E85 (you can use a Stage 2 EL E85 tune to use E85 on a stock car).

OFT also do a header so without looking into it I presume that means their header and by extension other aftermarket headers bolt onto the 2017 car.

To be honest if I was in your situation I'm not sure what I would do, I wouldn't rush into anything while still under warranty. I mean I'm pretty happy with what I've done to my car but I kinda wish I lived in Brisbane and could've gone to Tony who crimespree knows and get a proper dyno 98 and e85 tune.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by DexterPunk »

Thanks for all that info. Interesting that our fuel is different enough to the US.

My warranty runs out in 6 years :/ so unless I waited that long, I'd never do anything to the car. What I liked about the OFT after a bit of reading, is that if you flash back to stock it's pretty difficult to tell that the ECU has been changed. Unlike custom tunes.


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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by Sarsippius »

Yeah that's right if you need to go in for service or repairs you can flash the stock tune which I think will run well enough even with a header. Don't forget about the Tactrix cable, it's easier to buy, cheaper and will flash OFT and other tunes, it's what I have.

Some tuners like Tony from Coyote Tuning use a program called BRZEdit (I think in conjunction with a Tactrix cable), a bit like Ecutek this will allow them to protect their tunes but as far as I know you can buy a license for $3-400 and flash the tunes yourself, I assume a stock tune as well. At one point I was going to get an off the shelf tune from Tony and do it this way.

If you're not going to install a header and are just thinking of using a Stage 1 tune then it's arguable whether it is worth it or not. You won't get big gains, when I did it the motor just ran a bit nicer, a bit smoother and while it was only a short time before I put the header on you're supposed to get better fuel economy. Cheapest you can do this is probably around $4-500 for a Tactrix and a tune which isn't a big expense I guess.

by the way I think US 93 fuel is actually better than our 98, we use different rating systems.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by ysu »

Sarsippius wrote: ...I kinda wish I lived in Brisbane and could've gone to Tony who crimespree knows and get a proper dyno 98 and e85 tune.
How I've wished that too, a number of times!
DexterPunk wrote:...What I liked about the OFT after a bit of reading, is that if you flash back to stock it's pretty difficult to tell that the ECU has been changed. Unlike custom tunes. ...
True, although you can flash it back on delicious tuning (ecutec) as well.

On the service front: my local dealer & service - Brian Hilton Tuggerah - knows all about what I'm doing to the car, and they were very nice about it, too. I told them I've a header + tune on it, they said no probs, and directed me to the Toyota Performance shop at Lisarow, too :)

Yes Wayno's tunes weren't bad, the only trouble is that I don't think he'll have a 2017 tune as he does not have a 2017 car, and his tuning is done based on his own driving the car. His latest tune was based on a 2013 one, that's why I ditched it, it did not have an oil temp output, whereas my stock tune had it, so I don't know what else is off there.

Custom tunes at a tuner will be locked, exactly for the reason so you can't play with it nor download it. And it'll be damn expensive. But if you can find a good tuner, it's worth it.
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

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YSU, I read yesterday that you can flash back from ecutek tune etc, but it changes elements of the file that makes it pretty obvious that it's been messed with. I can't remember what that was, but seemed like some form of metadata. Some file associated identifier etc. where as OFT once flashed back to stock is almost impossible to tell it's been fiddled with. The only thing that would show up is the km's travelled etc since last reset. But you would get the same result if you disconnected your battery.

Sars it's interesting that you say the tune alone on the stock car is arguable as to whether you'd get much out of it. I'd be the last person to disagree, I really know very little about it. There were a few people on the forums suggesting that it's the best value mod they had ever bought, and the improvement was way better than they'd imagined it would. Perhaps it's because they had already done headers, I don't know.

I might chat to subaru when it goes in for it's free one month checkup and ask them what changing the headers would do to the warranty.




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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

Post by ysu »

DexterPunk wrote:YSU, I read yesterday that you can flash back from ecutek tune etc, but it changes elements of the file that makes it pretty obvious that it's been messed with. I can't remember what that was, but seemed like some form of metadata. Some file associated identifier etc. where as OFT once flashed back to stock is almost impossible to tell it's been fiddled with. The only thing that would show up is the km's travelled etc since last reset. But you would get the same result if you disconnected your battery.
Yes, but what's your aim with flashing back?
For sale, even a similar base tune would be fine, no-one will notice. For court; apparently they can detect OFT tunes, too, if they really want to tell.

p.s. if you do install a catless header, then you must have a tune. Otherwise you'll get cel codes thrown and warning lights on the dash (due to the missing cat).
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Re: New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

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The aim with flashing back, would be to avoid any warranty issues.
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