History - WWI and WWII

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Vilante
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History - WWI and WWII

Post by Vilante »

Morning All :)

I didn't do ANY history in school but find myself more and more interested in the World Wars as I get older. I know there is mountains of literature on the wars but I really want an overview of them so I can decide on what I want to explore further. I guess I kinda want to learn what you would learn at school, what happened when and why.

Does anyone know of anything that would suit me or am I best getting a school textbook?

Cheers.
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by Exar Kun »

Go to a second hand bookstore - you're bound to find some big history of WWI or WWII sort of book. The second world war tends to hold to most interest as it was far more varied, being fought on land, sea and air and snow, desert, jungle and everything in between. WWI you'll find was a lot more bogged down (literally) and I've found most books on it are a much harder slog than the WWII stuff as you just end up with lots of diagrams on how trench lines moved etc. Still, a fascinating war, just difficult to find a book which tells the story well. There's heaps around for WWII - anything from major battles to purely chronological stuff and then, of course, all the detail stuff - air way, subs, the pacific etc.

I'm being pretty vague, sorry, but i've found heaps of cheap books on them both at second hand book stores - no need to stump up the big cash. I don't know of any particular book that's more enlightening than another when it comes to the overall story though (having said that, there's heaps of Time/Life collections out there that are a pretty easy read).
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by Vilante »

Awesome, thanks Mick. I'll have a look around when I'm in the city on the weekend :)
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by macca »

I'd recommend the books by Antony Beevor, I've got Stalingrad & Berlin: The Downfall (well I bought them but they always seem to be borrowed). They can be a bit heavy & large (about 500 pages or so) but well worth the effort.
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by DexterPunk »

It's only a snippet from the US paratrooper perspective of course, but band of brothers actually gives you a fair bit of history along with the story. A mate of mine is a war nut... He's been reading books on WWI and WWII since he could read (along with ever other war). He's now an infantary officer. he's great to have along at a trivia night... He knows everything from ceasar to napolean and the politics behind all the modern wars. I'll ask him what he recommends for some specific book titles. I'm sure CJ will have ideas too!
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by Vilante »

Thanks guys!!
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by bengatta »

2 fascinating events of both wars...

1. The triggers that led up to WW1, was like a set of domino's rather than the start of WW2 which was a little more conventional start to a conflict.
2. Bletchley Park

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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by J.D. »

I've lost track of how much WWI & WWII history I've read. I've been reading it since I was 10 years old.

I personally don't think there's an easy way to do it if you go for general history. I think the best thing is to find something that, on the surface, pushes your buttons and go for it. Otherwise, you may have to plough your way through something you don't enjoy enough to want to finish.

You could start with say, pilot memoirs if you like aviation. I would recommend two brilliant books here: "Sagittarius Rising" by Cecil Lewis and "The Big Show" by Pierre Clostermann. "Sagittarius Rising" is the personal memoirs a WWI RFC pilot - Lewis. "The Big Show" is Clostermann's memoirs of his time in the RAF in WWII. I prefer Clostermann's book because he does not hold back. His emotions show through clearly. He talks of fear, tragedy and the general loss of spirit which creeps up on a person who sees his comrades die on a daily basis. While a lot of this sentiment is present in Lewis's book, it is much more raw in Clostermann's.

If you're interested in Gallipoli, "Goodbye Cobber, and God Bless You" by John Hamilton is extremely readable. For submarine stuff - the German Kriegsmarine in WWII - "Wolf" by Jordan Vause is extremely good if you can find it.

A word to the wise though. In recent times, the popularity of TV shows like "Band of Brothers" has encouraged resulted in a more entertainment-based view of history. This is something I personally abhor and popular historians have been quick to cash in on it. The late Stephen Ambrose, who wrote that book*, was once a brilliant historian. However, he realised later in life that he could sell more books by appealing to public sentiment than if he stuck to pure history. I read his book on D-Day and hated it for any number of reasons but principally for a fundamental lack of objectivity and self control. Antony Beevor has been guilty of the same things on occasions but less frequently or openly. "Crete - The Battle and the Resistance" is his best book.

I recently read a book about the Siege of Leningrad - which lasted almost 900 days and killed more than 1,000,000 people. While the book wasn't overly good, it gave me an insight into the Eastern Front in WWII. With the fall of the Berlin Wall and the opening of the former Soviet archives, much new information has come to light and reveals just how much of WWII was won in that theatre. By comparison WWII in Western Europe was relatively small. With any luck, someone other than Norman Stone will write something on WWI in the East (Tanneburg etc.). Nothing at all wrong with Stone's book, though it's very hard to find. It's just that it's the only one out there.

And who could forget Erich Maria Remarque's classic "All Quiet on the Western Front"? Might be the most brilliant anti-war book ever written.

*Ironically recommended to me by Kim Beazley...
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by J.D. »

bengatta wrote:The triggers that led up to WW1, was like a set of domino's rather than the start of WW2 which was a little more conventional start to a conflict.
Exactly right. This is something which confuses an awful lot of people and they tend to shy away from it. WWI was a family spat which got seriously out of hand. WWII could be easily polemicised into good vs evil.

In many respects WWII was "WWI Reloaded"... it was, in fact, an almost inevitable consequence.
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by durbster »

I've enjoyed all the books written about various wars by Max Hastings. His book on the Korean war was fascinating.
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

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Get Heinz Knoke: I flew for the führer. It's a diary of a luftwaffe pilot and a bloody good insight into their lives and a different view of WWII from one mans point of view. Also if you're struggling to find books the History channel on foxtel/austar run many a show about the wars. It's not as much info as a book but it's a start. I was watching a show about Starlingrad and the producers of the show got access to the Soviet records of the battles. It changed the view on the battle and shows it in a whole new light. It detailed Soviet attacks and counter attacks that no one in the west knew about. I won't go on about it too much though.
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by J.D. »

Ah! You need to read some of the stuff written by David Glantz. Have a look at Forgotten Battles, which is relatively short but he's also written plenty of books. Glantz is the Western authority on the battles of the Eastern Front and it's truly scary how little we know about it. I find his book style very dry though but his historical research is unimpeachable.

Haven't read Knoke's book but I'll get around to it one day soon.
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by J.D. »

Just finishing off Norman Stone's seminal work "The Eastern Front - 1914-1917".

What an amazing book. He starts with an explanation of the political ramifications of the structure of the Russian High Command (Stavka) during Tsarist times. He also explains the structure - or lack of it - in the Austro-Hungarian army of the period and introduces the people on both sides who were responsible for starting the First World War.

Through a series of battles including Tannenberg, Lemberg, the Carpathian campaign, the emergency in the Austro-Hungarian army of 1915 and the Brusilov Offensive, Stone takes us through a period of history few in the West know anything about. Described extensively from the Russian point of view, it demolishes all the old perceptions of Russian peasant soldiers with pitchforks mounting human wave attacks. Indeed, by 1916, Brusilov had formulated tactics which were used by Ludendorff during the Kaiserschlacht Offensive of 1918. Brusilov was a sufficiently forward thinker that he had developed the techniques to break the nexus of trench warfare at about the same time as the start of the Battle of the Somme - probably the best example of suicidal human wave attacks the Allies ever undertook. Who'd have thought a Russian would develop such things? He never even got any credit for it either.

The discussions of Russian industrial capacity and the ruminations of Revolution leave little room for doubt that the Russians were not defeated in the field in the usual sense. They walked away from the war because of trouble at home. Ironically, by 1917, the Russians were more capable than ever of taking on the Central Powers. Her industrial capacity had taken her from a feudal system of 1905 to a huge, modern industrial power by 1917. Her army had changed enormously once the success of Brusilov was realised. It is this part of the discussion which is probably the centre piece of this book.

There must be tens of thousands of books on WWI, probably 80% or more covering the Western Front. The Middle East and Palestine usually rate a book or two, especially when the name Lawrence of Arabia comes up and there are plenty of books on the Dardanelles campaign and Gallipoli (mostly for Australian consumption). So how many English text books do you reckon are written about the Eastern Front?

One.

This is it and it's frankly, a masterpiece. Stone's greatest regret is that nobody else has made much attempt to carry the torch lit when he first wrote it 35 years ago.
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by c.j »

Can't really add too much to this, JD has it covered and my interest lies with the jungle. Also isolated battles like Iwo Jima, but mainly close country fighting.

-Edit

Sorry, I was reading, typing, feeding my son and trying to eat a crumpet.

Vil, just start reading man. There are some amazing doco's out there too. But I would recommend watching these after reading about a particular event as they are usually abbreviated on the facts.

There is a wealth of info out there, I can't really name any particular author or book about WW1 or 2 that stands out for me. I usually just go to the Library and borrow books based on my interest. Which lately has been more about combat in the urban environment and Africa.

My own collection of books is pretty much all based on the Island battles of WW2 also Vietnam and more recent conflicts in similar environments be it against drug cartels or warlords.

It is all so very fascinating, my family has played a part in both Wars and the collection of maps, diaries and other items in the collection is quite amazing.

Enjoy it mate. It may be a little cliche but I don't give a shit, for me the battles along the Normandy coast are some of the most awesome. And Dick Winters taking that 88 emplacement was just amazing.
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by J.D. »

Just finishing Ralph Barker's book "The Royal Flying Corps in WWI".

Not bad. Reasonably good, in fact. Confined to the Western Front only. The trouble with using a lot of personal narrative is that it often displaces a more global understanding of something as big as WWI in the air but then it's only intended to be a brief history and in that respect, it succeeds.

Of course, it's not only about what happened in the air. Air combat really started with air observation, which the RFC exploited quite well in the early days until the arrival of "the Fokker Scourge" and suddenly both forces were simultaneously committed to both observing and preventing their enemy from doing the same thing. Names like McCudden and Mannock come up regularly and also people to be reckoned with in the future, like Dowding, Sholto Douglas, Portal and Newall. The arrival of tactical bombing and later, night interdiction raids, were a significant branching out of existing RFC operations and established the RFC as an independent force. The RNAS, as well as taking on the job of aerial combat, also operated against German submarine operations with limited success. That's not to say they were a waste of time; simply that the technology which would have made them an effective force against submarines, on the scale of WWII, did not exist at that time.

Trenchard, of course, is a mainstay of the book. Another notable is Douglas Haig. Often derided as a butcher, principally due to his own memoirs, Haig's reputation has been somewhat rehabilitated over the past 30 years or so and it is surprising to learn that he was an active supporter of air power.

The operations against the Spring Offensive of 1918 gives a really good idea of the extent to which ground operations had become dependent on the RFC and is probably the best part of the book.

7/10 Recommended.
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by richo »

I have The World at War series and every time I watch it I still can't comprehend the scope and brutality of that war .
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

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Just finished reading Len Deighton's book "Blitzkrieg". This 35+ year old work is actually pretty worthwhile and gives a much broader view of the topic than do many others. I have had some difficulty finding anything much on the French part in the campaign which resulted in the most spectacular military defeat in their history. So many books concentrate on the British actions, which were a very small part of the overall campaign and not in the critical areas. Deighton, despite his heritage, resists the temptation and presents a well rounded view of events, though still conforming to the Churchillian stereotypes regarding Chamberlain's contribution. Needless to say, this is a pretty small part of the overall picture. The book underscores how close the whole affair could have been but for a lack of generalship, intelligence (the military kind) and some artillery. Chance also played no small part. Had Guderian's Panzers been caught by the French army during the crossing of the Meuse, we would probably not be talking about what a great general he was but what a catastrophic defeat he had suffered. Also, while the Maginot Line occupies so much of the public imagination, particularly in view of the perceived waste, the real failures were with things like morale (due to poor pay and leadership), refuelling for tanks and a lack of anti tank guns. The speed of the Blitzkrieg was what took the French by surprise and it was simply impossible to counter.

Highly recommended, 8/10:

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Re: History - WWI and WWII

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Thanks JD
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Re: History - WWI and WWII

Post by J.D. »

It's a very easy read Smiss.

At the moment I'm making my way through Julian Jackson's "The Fall of France, 1940" which is a lot more solid - though shorter - and concentrates a lot more on the political position France was in. There is a fair bit on the campaign but the background information is really quite interesting, though it takes a pretty high level of concentration to take it all in. The number of failed treaties France entered into in the 20s and 30s paint a very different picture of the political situation in Europe at the beginning of WWII and throw the whole alliance with the UK into a very different perspective. It was nothing like as simple or harmonious as I had previously thought. The divisions go way beyond the usual Francophile/Francophobe stereotypes.
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