JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by J.D. »

Here's the latest report from the Dept of Defence Inspector General, condemning the Pratt & Whitney F135 engine which has not met the standard of reliability it was meant to. I suppose this will result in them passing it by simply lowering the standard!

http://www.dodig.mil/pubs/documents/DODIG-2015-111.pdf

You only need to read the results in brief section.

Then there was the engine fire...
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by c.j »

So it keeps getting better. Why the hell is no one doing anything about this?
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by Durrie »

That report about the audit of the Quality Management System for the engine program was released a year ago. It's not new information.

A paper pushing report about paper pushing. Perhaps if they weren't sitting around having interminable meetings and reviews about the action points in the risk management system surrounding the decision process for whether the project should have knives in the cutlery draw in the lunch room, or whether they can ensure they have enough black and yellow tape available to fence off Barry's spilt strawberry milk, they could be completing the project.

That report contains no details of the failure of the engine program to meet the hours-between-failure ctiteria of the project plan for the engines at that point of the development cycle. That was a different report by the Government Accounting Office also more than a year ago...and, as I understand it, it was disputed by P&W because it didn't reflect the actual engines in production and already installed in the finished airframes at the time.

I think we need more recent news of further and current failures of the program to get our indignity really peaking properly. This news is a bit of a damp squib and not really news.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by c.j »

It is still damning! And my question remains, who the fuck is the oversight for this? And why aren't they overseeing it?
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by Durrie »

c.j wrote:It is still damning! And my question remains, who the fuck is the oversight for this? And why aren't they overseeing it?
Well, apparently, the guys overseeing the project include:
1. The Inspector General of the US Dept. of Defense (see report linked by J.D.);
2. The Government Accounting Office (given they reported on the perfromance of the engines that was referred to above);
3. The Joint Project Office (whose quality management system was subject to review by the IG); and
4. The Defense Contract Management Agency (whose quality management system was also subject to review by the IG).

There are probably more because there is the ariframe project as well as the engine.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by c.j »

Time to get my pen out! Ta durrie
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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Durrie wrote:That report about the audit of the Quality Management System for the engine program was released a year ago. It's not new information.

snip

I think we need more recent news of further and current failures of the program to get our indignity really peaking properly. This news is a bit of a damp squib and not really news.
Yes, the engine fire was in 2014 but this was the first time I had seen anything like this. It does point out that the engine has failed to maintain an adequate level of reliability and if you know anything about jet engine - and I assume you do - you will know that it isn't something which could have been fixed in the last 12 months. It also reflected poorly on the management of the program.

Probably also worth pointing out that JPO manager Chris Bogdan had already been complaining about the quality of the work done by P&W, so the issues have been ongoing. I don't expect everything to work perfectly the first few times. Jet engine development is extremely complex and expensive and failures are not uncommon in early development. But given that the F135 is a development of the F119 from the F-22, it highlights that there are reasons to be concerned.

If you can find anything more "newsy" then feel free to post it.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by J.D. »

Durrie wrote:
c.j wrote:It is still damning! And my question remains, who the fuck is the oversight for this? And why aren't they overseeing it?
Well, apparently, the guys overseeing the project include:
1. The Inspector General of the US Dept. of Defense (see report linked by J.D.);
2. The Government Accounting Office (given they reported on the perfromance of the engines that was referred to above);
3. The Joint Project Office (whose quality management system was subject to review by the IG); and
4. The Defense Contract Management Agency (whose quality management system was also subject to review by the IG).

There are probably more because there is the ariframe project as well as the engine.
Also Director, Operational Test and Evaluation. He was the one who wrote the report I linked to a couple of pages ago.

http://www.dote.osd.mil/
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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2015 DoD Report doesn't paint a rosey picture.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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Yeah, that's the same one. And no; it's not favourable. The latest problem is that the ALIS software probably won't be ready for the Navy's IOC in 2018 but the Air Force expects to introduce it into squadrons this year!

One thing that puzzles me: if they keep coming up with new things for this to do (to stop the progam from being cancelled), eventually one of three things is going to happen:

1) Bug propagation will ensure that it won't have any spare computing power to operate the necessary systems for it to be a viable combat aircraft;

2) It will simply price itself out of the market or

3) The technology it generates will be so effective that the F-35 itself won't be needed.

Not all of that is bad, just not ideal. Very few of the things which came out of the notorious SDI program of the 1980s actually worked as advertised. However, the technology it generated was immensely useful.

There are some serious crackpot things being written out there at the moment. For example, Turkey wants the source code for the OS but Lockheed-Martin won't give it to them. When this was reported, the articles said that having the source code would enable whomever had it to almost anything with the aircraft including remote control. This has been reported as Turkey having an interest in using the F-35 by remote control. Of course it's total bollocks. Why would you need a US $130m aircraft to do something by remote control when you could have a whole fleet for that? But that's what some of the fanobis are saying! What the article meant was that access to the source code would allow it to be hacked and potentially used against the operator. A sort of Prometheus moment.

The US is learning the hard way that they probably should have kept the F-22 production line open (though that's not an ideal solution either) and stuck to one type.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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The Raptor is tailor made for the USAF but that leaves the Navy and Marines up shit creek.

Still amazed that only The Canucks have had the brains/balls to drop out of this clusterfuck.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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Jamo wrote:Still amazed that only The Canucks have had the brains/balls to drop out of this clusterfuck.
Have they actually decided this yet?
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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As of Feb 2016, they're still part of the F-35 program.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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Blimey I thought it was a done deal they were out.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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Jamo wrote:Blimey I thought it was a done deal they were out.
The new government did a backflip
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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That contract must be really something, talk about ironclad!
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by J.D. »

Yeah, buy the aircraft or get sued for the total value of the contract methinks...
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by smithcorp »

Damning assessment of the current state of the F35 - may never be able to be deployed:

https://warisboring.com/the-f-35-stealt ... .91tc1q2ip
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by wobblysauce »

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/f-35 ... 11263.html

The F-35 just proved it can take Russian or Chinese airspace without firing a shot
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by Duke »

That's one hell of an expensive "elevated, highly mobile sensor".
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by wobblysauce »

Stealthy...
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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All that tech doesn't mean shit if it can't even get off the ground...

Air Force grounds 15 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters because of ‘peeling and crumbling’ insulation
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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Sarc ; my second favourite type of gasm.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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Lockheed have always been grubby on how they do deals for their aircraft. In the UK in the 1950's, Saunders Roe were developing an interceptor, SR.53, that had a jet engine and a rocket engine. You would engage the rocket to get to mach 2.2. By all reports it had a lot of potential. Lockheed had their F-104 Starfighter and there wasn't much interest in the US for it so they decided to flog it overseas. Lockheed were going to European governments to sell the F-104's and West Germany was one of them.

Johannes Steinhoff was moving up through the ranks of the Luftwaffe and flew jets in WW2, before it almost killed him, advised the government that the F-104 was a dangerous plane and pilot lives were as risk. But deals were done and West Germany got F-104's. Steinhoff was in charge of the Luftwaffe in 1965 and grounded the entire F-104 force as many pilots were being killed in training. Eric Hartmann, who scored 352 kills in WW2 and commanded on of the first West German jet squadrons also said it should never have been flown because it was too dangerous.

By the time Lockheed had finished flogging the F-104 to Europe, it completely undermined the Saunder's Roe project and to a degree halted the industry in the UK as it could not compete.

So even though Lockheed have mad some wonderful aircraft, the sure know how to flog their crap outside the US. F-35 is one of them.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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I came across this and thought you guys might enjoy.
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