JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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Dr. Pain
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by Dr. Pain »

Yeah, after reading that.

They've always had really good airframes on their aircraft. Tough and simple in places that are not critical yet very good in terms of aerodynamics. But they always lacked in electronics. Don't think that's too much of a problem now though.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by J.D. »

That depends on what you're talking about. In the early 90's they had a comfortable lead in IR detection systems. Before that, they were the first to introduce a phased array fighter radar (MiG-31) in the 1980s. That said, in the main, they have lagged behind, at least in part because they simply lacked the population and industrial base from which to compete effectively with the West.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by J.D. »

This came from the the United States DOT&E report to the Secretary of Defense:
"The F-35 failed 11 out of 12 Weapons Delivery Accuracy (WDA) tests with no fixes, only work arounds in the immediate future "

"The F-35 program leadership altered tests to achieve a “kill” – for example, by restricting target maneuvers and countermeasures."

"The weapon bay temperatures exceed limits during ground operations on days warmer than 90-deg. F, and at high speeds below 25,000 feet, if the weapon bays are closed for more than 10 min."

"All F-35s are currently subject to g restrictions with full internal fuel."

“the rate of deficiency correction has not kept pace with the discovery rate”

“Well-known, significant problems include the defective Autonomic Logistics Information System, unstable avionics and persistent aircraft and engine reliability and maintainability issues."
In other words, the results were faked. This aircraft is supposed to have reached IOC with the USMC in July. Sure, it sailed aboard a Marine ship but its despatch reliability rate was about 50%, which is appalling.

Here's the report in toto:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/ar ... E_2015.pdf

How much more crap do we have to put up with before we cancel this stupid thing?
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by Jamo »

Hang on you're saying that this thing only flies in 5/10 ops?

Jesus Christ in any previous conflict WW2, Korea or Nam it'd be pushed off the side of The Boat.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by wobblysauce »

With so much invested in it, there going to put more into it to get less out of it.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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Jamo wrote:Hang on you're saying that this thing only flies in 5/10 ops?

Jesus Christ in any previous conflict WW2, Korea or Nam it'd be pushed off the side of The Boat.
I wouldn't have had a problem with it were it not for the fact that the unit in question has been declared operational. This has obviously been done for PR purposes to deflect some of the negative publicity surrounding the program.

Here's the report from the US Director of Testing and Evaluation (DTO&E):

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/ar ... E_2015.pdf

Everyone agrees it's accurate. Even Lockheed-Martin.

The juicy bits are highlighted.

Here's a brief precis of some of the salient points:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... 7i%3E.html
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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wobblysauce wrote:With so much invested in it, there going to put more into it to get less out of it.
The trouble is Wobbler, they are lost in a vortex of Moore's Law, massively increasing bug propagation, Congressional demands for a jet which can do everything but at a cost and emerging technology which has the potential to render it all completely irrelevant.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by Jamo »

Wow just wow, immediate cancellation is the only sensible option. Which of course is why it will not happen.

Never mind a Fulcrum a Fresco would chew one of these things to pieces.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by c.j »

As above. Wow. This information needs to be translated in to terms the taxpayer can digest and shared nationally, before delivery.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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With full internal fuel, the aircraft cannot currently exceed 3.5G...
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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It's a damning report.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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By the way, if any of you who have followed this thread are interested, this is a question which has yet to be answered by anybody, particularly F-35 fanbois. I dreamt this little one up a while ago and everywhere I've posted it, I am told "won't happen" or "it's the old way" etc.

According to Lockheed-Martin, an F-35 goes up against an Su-35. The F-35 spots the Sukhoi long before it can be seen by the enemy radar, looses off an AIM-120 and splashes one Flanker.

This, of course, assumes two things 1) that the F-35 is in its stealthy configuration, with no external weapons and 2) that the AIM-120 will work as advertised. This is what the spec sheet says is supposed to happen.

But there are a couple of problems with this. Firstly the AIM-120 has a Pk of .5 (or 50% if you prefer). The means for best results the F-35 pilot has to fire not one but two AIM-120s which, even then, only gives him a Pk of about 67%. (never mind whether or not it will use A-Pole or F-Pole) That means the enemy aircraft still has a 33% chance of surviving the encounter.

The next problem is that the only missile the F-35 can carry internally is the AIM-120. To carry the AIM-9 it cannot be stealthy because that missile cannot be carried internally. Secondly, the F-35 only carries two AIM-120s and we have already fired both of them. You'd better hope they work because if the Flanker gets inside your missile shots you're down to the gun.

The F-35 in stealth mode has terrible combat persistence. It can only carry two missiles (they are promising four...). The Su-35 has excellent combat persistence and can carry up to 10 missiles, including the highly-regarded R-73 IR homing missile. Given the fact that the F-35 is now down to its gun and simply lacks enough maneuverability to defeat an F-16, its chances against a decently-flown Flanker are not good.

Yes, this is the scenario Lockheed-Martin wants you to believe. It's no good saying the AIM-120 will take care of everything. A Pk of .5 for a missile like that is pretty good but the aircraft can't make it better. And remember, the vast bulk of AIM-120 kills have been WVR and it's not good at off-boresight shooting like a Sidewinder.

Now suppose we take two squadrons of 12 aircraft each, converging on reciprocal courses. Suppose the F-35s all fire two missiles to make sure of their targets. Mathematically, 8 Sukhois will be shot down and 4 of the 12 will survive, each armed with 10 missiles against the F-35s which are down to guns and harsh language. That's 40 missiles to take care of 12 aircraft. That's very doable. Think "target rich environment". On top of that, if it comes to guns, the F-35's lack of manoeuvrability against an F-16 would leave it in a potentially hopeless position against a half-decently flown Flanker with a very pissed off pilot.

Now throw in factors such as jamming and spoofing of IFF as well as enemy using passive seeker heads on their missiles and you start to get a different picture.

It's called "wargaming".

To fully understand a modern aerial combat environment, this is very necessary reading:

The Bekaa Valley Air Battle, 1982

Most people still think in terms of 1 v 1. The Red Baron and all that. While the Boelke Dicta and the five phases of aerial combat still apply, the principal reason why the West has been so dominant against all other air forces over the past 30 years is quite simple: they have always had absolute control of the battlespace before combat began. The article explains how is happened in 1982 but that is the model for virtually all modern air battles. It also explains why the F-15's air to air combat record is about 120/0. They have never fought in truly high-threat environment. That's not to take anything away from the F-15 or the pilots who fly it. Just puts it into perspective.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by c.j »

Not that I want to hit you with commercial television but 60 mins did a story on this aircraft.

https://www.9now.com.au/60-minutes/2016 ... nn8m5y8nz6
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by J.D. »

Thanks. I knew it was coming up. A mate of mine shot it.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by wobblysauce »

Do you think it could be like this?

http://warisboring.com/articles/austral ... en-combat/
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by J.D. »

Probably not Wobbles, though c.j. will know more than I do. The helicopter project was nowhere near as big, it had few US connections (so was moderately embarrassing) and can be replaced relatively easily.

The trouble with really big projects like the F-35 is that it's a bit like buying art. The more you pay, the less prepared you are to believe it's a forgery.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by J.D. »

Even First Dog has had a say:

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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by wobblysauce »

First Dog, on point again.


And the other thing I was thinking about before was this.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014 ... -want.html
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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сначала мы убиваем американского лося и белку.

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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by Scottie »

loved that last article, thanks JD!
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

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Shows emphatically why drones are bullshit. It's ethically, morally, fuck just plain wrong to punch someones ticket by remote control.

The A-10 should've always been an Army aircraft. The USAF hates it and always has. Hates being tied to the Army. To follow their orders and do their work. It has always been the red headed stepchild and has been treated as such.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by wobblysauce »

And it will not be the last time information will be expunged.
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Re: JSF/F-35...time to eject.

Post by J.D. »

Cowboys.

Thanks blokes. Glad you liked the article.
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