New Beast (now Toyota 86 discussion)

[ysu]

No, I've picked the header up from a local guy, used. (got lucky) It's a lot more expensive otherwise, not cheap to start with, exchange rate, coating + shipping here...although I've just got a tip on shipping: ShopMate by austPost! https://shopmate.auspost.com.au/our-rat ... ping-rates
This 250/B is not available anymore, by the way. The best available equivalent (well, upgrade, really) for RHD seems to be the CS400.
Also: it's 14kgs packaged up.

But tbh cost or no cost, from what I'm reading it's a no-brainer to go ACE with headers, they are the best - unless you go E85. With E85 the advantage of the ACE solution is rather diminished. Don't ask me how or why.

The fitting will be this weekend - hopefully - and the tuning via OFT comes next when the bloody OFT gets here. They sat on it for quite a long time before sending it, so even though I've ordered last thrusday with express, it's still nowhere near.

I wish I had the info that you can install OFT tunes via a Tactrix cable - it's cheaper ($200 vs ~$800!) and can get it locally. And it's unlikely that I'll actually do any tuning myself, I just don't have the time to delve into it.

But! I will have the option this way,
- to store multiple tunes on the OFT, which means I can do E85 / partial E85 / 98 tunes, for extra grunt (a pump with E85 is a fair way off though, but on track it can worth an extra 10-15 whp)
- to log my data on track - which is damn handy


Edit: talked to Coyote Tuning, sadly they don't have all the parts for the Engine Oil kit together, yet, still waiting on some part. They're also working on an ATF cooler right now.
I'll keep an eye on them, it's still winter so chances are I won't fry the engine or the transmission just yet - but this isn't something we can put off too much, it seems.

[Sarsippius]

Ok cool, I'll be interested to hear how it performs without any tune and also how it sounds with the completely stock exhaust. I've been reading and it can be quite loud apparently.

I spoke to Tony yesterday but he had no voice so I said I'd call back next week. Good to hear they're also looking at the atf cooling. I also wanted to see if he had any suggestions with respect to a header. The ACE does sound like it's the best option but Tony might be able to provide a tune for various headers, maybe get 90% of the performance with less cost, will see what he suggests.

[Sarsippius]

Harrop are the local distributor for ACE, $1,870 for the Club Sport 400.

If I bought a Tactrix cable would I still have to buy the maps from OFT? Where did you get the ACE tune from?

[ysu]

That's not a bad price! Is it with the overpipe? You probably need the op as well, it sortof works as a package.
Also, based on what I read it's strongly recommended getting it ceramic coated. Too much heat in the engine bay otherwise - and a tiny bit less grunt

The tune: it's free. this is the best part.

OFT themselves have tunes - stage 1 for stock, stage 2 for NA+header.

But there's a chap in Australia, "Steve99" - you can see a lot of his work on the ft86club forum, especially in the software tuning section - he refines the tunes and helps a lot, along with wayno. They've ace specific tunes, too.
There's a closed facebook group where they post the tunes: https://www.facebook.com/groups/437544459724108/

I'm not sure you can directly apply to join - if not, look up either of them on the forum and ask for an invite. Very friendly & helpful guys, both.

[Sarsippius]

Yeah I've seen a lot of posts from those guys but wayno started a thread for ACE OFT tunes but then removed the info, something about the ACE headers coming to Oz all being prototypes with fitment issues
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99551

I've also seen many posts that the ACE headers are different enough that the standard OFT tunes won't work very well for them.

I guess it will be good to see how you get on and how it all works for you. The other option that's starting to look like it could be good is the OFT/OFH3 combo.

[ysu]

Standard tunes will get the standards out of them, apparently. But as I said these guys develop ace specific tunes. The word out there is that the absolute best canned is the delicious tunes. However it is a completely locked route.

But we'll see indeed. Only prollem: I can only butt-dyno. And no comparison with another header...


Edit I'm not sure what was that thread about from wayno, tbh. He seems to have gotten frustrated there a bit. Bu when I talked to him mentioning my header he said it is the best out there...so they still think about ace headers as the best.

[ysu]

Status report.
The installation of the header + OP is done. It wasn't simple I tells ya. The main trick is getting the overpipe out and the new one in. They say "jack the engine up a bit" but that bit is a good 6cm and there is no jacking point on the engine!
There's also no mention of the heat shielding on the original overpipe - it should be removed before I reckon, but it has/had a bolt in an extremely awkward location that we just could not undo in there. This made the whole thing so much harder...then once we got the old one out, the new one could not be put in, because of the way we jacked the engine up (we used a too big block of wood). So we had to lower it, get another piece of wood cut (great neighbours here, one had a chainsaw to cut!) that would have enough space to work around.
I'd not recommend doing it w/o someone with good tools & experience.

We've also noticed too late that one o2 sensor hole was plugged up with a stripped bolt (we just jumped into the installation a bit carelessly). That was pretty much a point of no return, so we have just done it up as it is. That'll probably have to be corrected later. Or maybe the tune will disable the o2 sensors anyway.
But it's now in place at least.

We've also done the brakes & the fluid.

It sounds good, not much louder, pretty much the same at idle & low rev, but as you start revving it, that nice "racey" sound comes out.
The car is still on jacks, so I haven't driven it yet, we just started it up to see if all seems tight.
The bottom is still off, the wheels are still off, I'm too tired to do it up today

[Sarsippius]

Glad to hear you got it all done, I did read someone else had an o2 sensor cross threaded on their factory manifold so I might check those first when my time comes.

I spoke to Tony this morning, I'll go through him to get the manifold and tune. The manifold is a Gruppe-S I believe which is virtually the same thing as the Tomei UEL, about $8-900 for the manifold and the same again for the canned tune and BRZEdit license and cable.

He has tunes for the ACE but said I'll be getting 99% of the performance of the ACE + tune with the above. You've gone your route with the OFT but he's still an option for you if you end up not happy with the OFT for any reason.

I asked him about the final drive as well, interestingly he doesn't see them as a good option but he has done one before and can get all the parts. Some guys with autos say it's the best thing they've done to the car so I'll keep thinking about it but put it on the back burner for now. Off the top of his head he was thinking about $1.5k for the parts so it could still be cheaper to go to Weir Performance direct, get just the necessary bits and source the bearings etc locally. I have also been thinking about trying to get a diff from a wreck (either our car or there's a Lexus that's usable) and installing the final drive in that and then doing a swap. It would cost more but would limit down time and the swap itself is meant to be very easy so if something wasn't right you could swap back to the original while sorting out any issues. It might not be much of a consideration for you but my car couldn't be off the road for more than a day or two.

I'm not sure if he said the same to you but he said the ATF cooler was something they were doing for a customer but wasn't a customer kit like the oil cooler will be which is a bit disappointing.

[ysu]

Best of luck with your setup!

That's exactly why I've gone OFT for now - it's fully reversible/changeable. And I can even re-sell the tablet.

[Sarsippius]

By the way you're probably all over it but I have heard of some issues with the ACE headers touching the undertray but apparently it just requires flattening one of the little raised spots. Wouldn't want you to ruin your nice coating

Oh and something else, Tony said not to worry about coating mine so I'm not sure, maybe it's not such a big deal. I have read that catless headers run cooler than stock

[ysu]

There's a thread on an ace header (uncoated) vs stock. The ace gets to higher temps, but also has bigger fluctuations compared to the stock. i.e. stock is hotter average, ace is hotter on short term.
Sadly there's no direct comparison to coated - but there's another thread somewhere where they did some testing on coated header, and the temps are significantly lower.

i.e. for street it should be fine, for track...god knows. I'd not risk it, but up to you. Just log your temps as much as you can.

[ysu]

by the way, the car is back on all fours. I've received the OFT, put the stage2 tune from Wayno on...damn!

I went out earlier for a short drive to bed the brakes in (just with the header on, no tune) and as expected I did not feel much difference. But with the tune on, it's definitely different. It friggen pulls from 2-3k revs!

But sadly it seems I'll have to take it to a shop to remove the seized plug, I'll need that o2 sensor in. As it turns out the previous owner used a sensor port on the front pipe (aftermarket exhaust). This is a bit meh, here.

[ysu]

Alright, the plug is removed I got my o2 sensor back! It turns out, this was a bloody simple job for the exhaust shop

[ysu]

I went out for a bit of a drive. Vindication that my butt-sense is working; the 0-100 times went down from about 8s to 7.3. Good times

Oh; and yes, the pipe does touch the bottom plate. That could be rectified with a bit of hammering on the plate, I guess....

One more interesting tidbit; after driving back home, stopped the car for a few mins, then raised it to put the tray back on. The exhaust was completely cold, the engine was still very-very hot. I'm not sure if the stock exhaust gets rid of the heat this good...but I don't think so.

[Sarsippius]

I think I must have misunderstood you re the o2 sensor, I thought it was the sensor that had been cross threaded but one of the bungs on the ACE header was plugged with a cross threaded bolt?

Regarding the manifold touching the skid plate, I saw a picture wayno posted, not sure if it was his or someone else's but the coating had been ruined at the point it touched the plate so I'd try and sort that out straight away.

I'm still umming and ahhing about the coating, it's a PSR manifold with OP (Prospeed Racing) & it's $400 for the coating. I found those threads and the one with the logged data there's really no clear advantage. Pretty much everyone says to go for it and I would, it's only what Tony said that's making me think otherwise.

Anyway glad to hear the manifold & tune has worked so well for you, did you use that Harry's app to get the 0-100 times?

Oh and how does it sound? I'm kinda fighting with the wife atm, I showed her some youtube clips of the Tomei UEL with the rest stock and she doesn't like it at all lol. I can't say I'm in love with the UEL sound, I think I prefer the EL sound a bit more but it doesn't faze me and I think I will actually grow to like it. I've kinda realised with some of these things that when it's your car things grow on you. Originally I didn't like the massive wing but now I wouldn't be without it, I originally liked the stock rims but now that I've gone through finding aftermarket ones I don't like them so much any more.

By the way that reminds me, I changed my rims order from the RPF1s to the PF01s. I guess I was fixated on the weight & not caring that the look didn't really grab me. The wife didn't like them though and I realised if they're on the car full time it's worth having something that I also like the look of. The PF01s are heavier but it's only about half a kilo per rim. The guy at Autotechnik was really good and allowed me to change and only had to pay the difference in price which was $100. A good compromise I think.

[ysu]

I think I must have misunderstood you re the o2 sensor, I thought it was the sensor that had been cross threaded but one of the bungs on the ACE header was plugged with a cross threaded bolt?

It was't cross-threaded, it was seized up, and the allen key slot on it was rounded. Otherwise; yes.

Regarding the manifold touching the skid plate, I saw a picture wayno posted, not sure if it was his or someone else's but the coating had been ruined at the point it touched the plate so I'd try and sort that out straight away.

I've posted on in the ace thread now; Not sure if this link works, but there it is: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attachme ... 1468318372
I'll fix it asap. There is a spot on it already that is rubbed out a bit - not ruined, but there's a spot (previous guy must have found it out a bit later, too) I don't think that makes a difference overall, but I'd like to keep things intact - thanks for the heads up!

I'm still umming and ahhing about the coating, it's a PSR manifold with OP (Prospeed Racing) & it's $400 for the coating. I found those threads and the one with the logged data there's really no clear advantage. Pretty much everyone says to go for it and I would, it's only what Tony said that's making me think otherwise.

So everyone says do it, one guy says don't worry... Well, up to you of course.

Anyway glad to hear the manifold & tune has worked so well for you, did you use that Harry's app to get the 0-100 times?

The app is called "Smart control" (free). Reads data via bluetooth obd2, and announces & logs acceleration, braking, and other data (fuel consumption, torque values - dunno where it gets those!). The obd2 LX adapter I've posted earlier IIRC, is a very handy tool!

Oh and how does it sound? I'm kinda fighting with the wife atm, I showed her some youtube clips of the Tomei UEL with the rest stock and she doesn't like it at all lol. I can't say I'm in love with the UEL sound, I think I prefer the EL sound a bit more but it doesn't faze me and I think I will actually grow to like it. I've kinda realised with some of these things that when it's your car things grow on you. Originally I didn't like the massive wing but now I wouldn't be without it, I originally liked the stock rims but now that I've gone through finding aftermarket ones I don't like them so much any more.

It sounds great. You can find videos of Ace EL headers, by the way, it's a unique noise. It's very quiet at lower revs, you can't really tell the difference, but as you start revving you get a sortof metallic, racecar-like sound out of it, which is a bit louder than the default was, but nothing major. And it does not have the UEL rumble - I hate that noise For streets I've read the UEL is great, most EL headers can't get rid of the torque dip, and the UEL's have good low-end torque. But the EL is where the power is. And the ACE headers get rid of the dip completely, unlike any other EL header on the market. But you pay for it

By the way that reminds me, I changed my rims order from the RPF1s to the PF01s. I guess I was fixated on the weight & not caring that the look didn't really grab me. The wife didn't like them though and I realised if they're on the car full time it's worth having something that I also like the look of. The PF01s are heavier but it's only about half a kilo per rim. The guy at Autotechnik was really good and allowed me to change and only had to pay the difference in price which was $100. A good compromise I think.

[/quote]
Heavier & more expensive...hm...

[Sarsippius]

Yeah but $25 per rim isn't anything major, I'm happier and with the rim + tyre I'm still shedding 1kg per corner

I do have an OBD2 adapter and have used Torque Pro which looks like it does a 0-60mph so I'll have to make sure to do a before and after like you have.

I take it you bought the ACE manifold from Hawk77FT? I first saw it and thought 'here we go' and then it suddenly clicked that it must have been the one that you bought.

How much can you get E85 where you are? I was thinking about this a bit, like you mentioned before it would be good for the track day but the only way to get it up here is buy drums wholesale or from someone who buys drums and on sells it but it's something crazy like $4/L

[ysu]

That's the header, indeed.

I've NFI on the E85 price, to be honest. It is a future plan, I've yet to decide if I bother with it. But I've just had a look and a couple of fairly near-by United stations have it...(within 10kms) That's nice.
There are some prices on the united site, if this can be believed; http://www.unitedpetroleum.com.au/whole ... gate-price

It's an easy switch, too, if you've enough around. But the fuel consumption will go up a LOT. I'd basically have to take a few big jerry cans to the track...
You can just load up a 'mixed' tune until the tank has changed over completely, then switch to 'full e85' tune and that's it - of course one can go with Flex Fuel kit, but those who did say it's a waste, they pretty much never go back - only in emergency. And for that, you can have your OFT with you, and just flash it back to 98 RON

[Sarsippius]

If you go past your station I'd be curious to know the price. Generally from what I gather it's lower than 98 which offsets the higher MPG and if I could get it here and the pricing was like that then I would probably make the switch 100%.

For now I'm only thinking of it for track days but at $4/L that's $200 for a tank which could be worth it depending on your point of view but it all adds up, I'd have to buy another tune for it as well. One big benefit aside from the power increase is the lower temps, pretty sure I saw it somewhere you can have 10 degrees lower oil temps when running E85.

I sent United a message asking when we'll have it here, I'm not expecting much lol

[ysu]

you beauty:




by the way, if you're interested in how to use tactrix - just in case you're not entirely set on the tune/method...and decide to use the cheap route for OFT/Wayno tunes

[ysu]

Mate, get a good header & tune asap. This has transformed the car something awesome. It is such a joy to drive. Gone is the low end hesitation and it pulls till the redline, strong. Now I'm probably going to up it to E85 because it's available here, but even just as it is it is fantastic.

I cant imagine this with a supercharger...I guess it would go like a bat out of hell.

[Sarsippius]

I definitely will be and I'm glad to hear you are so happy with it, certainly justifies the decision

Last weekend I took the car down to Hidden Valley for some Motorkhana. It was good fun and a good way to get a feel for the low speed handling of the car in a safer environment than the street. The car definitely is as tail happy as most people say it is but I hadn't really been able to test it out till now. Apart from the club membership and CAMS license it's $30 for the day which is hard to go past, we did 12 layouts all up with a couple runs on each. If you have somewhere nearby you can do it I'd definitely recommend to give it a go.

There was another GTS there, manual and apparently there's usually another guy who regularly goes with an auto. The guy with the manual actually puts the 16" GT rims on his for these and track days because the tyres are cheaper, not such a bad idea. I think I surprised some of them there, I said I hadn't done anything like this before which is true aside from sim racing which I didn't mention. I haven't got the results yet but I think I did pretty well for a first go. I'll put together a short vid from the dash cams up on youtube a bit later.

Something else also came in the mail this week, will get them installed over the weekend

[ysu]

yum

Sounds great, and yes I'd love to attend something like that - even regularly. However, I could not find anything on the coast as of yet, not sure if anything exists, or I should keep an eye on things happening at EC - it's still reasonably close. Can't wait to see the video, mate. And the results. You're no slouch on the (sim)track that's for sure.

[crimespree]

Hi Gents,
Ysu pointed me back here.
I have had my 86 since the start and have been tracking when time permits (3 young ones prohibits me doing it as much as I'd like)
I do have a bit of experience will all this 86 stuff so happy to answer any specific questions.
I am good friends with Tony and have been running in the sprint series we started for Qld in the 86 Drivers Club along with Josh Coote etc.
I'm still in love with my car, it's great package.

[crimespree]