Mark Skaife Understands Road Saftey

[J.D.]

For anyone who cares:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/autobahn.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Hz-Lab]

I tend to agree with J.D. re: the costs of building these roads being more of a concern, To put it bluntly, when it comes to saving lives vs saving money, The government are more concerned with the latter. They love to go on about individual highlighted cases but never do anything to tackle it as a whole.

I think of all the things we could take from the German system, raising the speed limit's should be the last. Driver training is the priority and I really hope they do something about it. I know it would cause a ruckus but I even wish they would bring in a new policy stating that even existing drivers had to sit the training to retain their current license. With like a 3 year grace period or something. There are sooooooo many fickwuts on our roads at the moment. I don't know what it's like in other states but here in SA, and this is not an exaggeration, over 60% of people would be speed at least 10 to 20 times a day.

[durbster]

Can I just add that the Autobahn is not as unique as it might seem. I don't think the average speed of traffic in Germany is significantly higher than the rest of Europe. The average speed on a free flowing UK motorway ( a rare thing ) is well above the speed limit, and most places I've driven in Europe are comparable.

I found Australian drivers to be unpredictable on the whole, and lane discipline was non-existent. They'd be the first things I'd address.

I would be very surprised if raising the speed limits actually made any difference to road safety in reality. I just looked up the NT stats since they introduced the limit and, although it's quite early, it doesn't seem to have had any major effect on the stats.

[J.D.]

Well, it seems to me that there are things they could do before they look at building Autobahnen and upping the speed limit. On that basis, we're agreed. Even Ken Lay saw merit in what Skaife said but you have to think that his best intentions were scuttled by something we're clearly not ready for.

Extensive driver training should be mandatory. But how you hold the average new driver to a pattern of responsible behaviour is the big question.

Durbs; I agree with you, having driven over there. I was surprised at the speed of the traffic in the UK and I honestly felt it was necessary to travel at an excessive speed to avoid being plunked by the rest of the traffic stream. Also, there are Autobahnen and Autobahnen. Not all of them are de-restricted. In fact, only about 25% are.

[petey]

In any case, it is important to note that an advisory speed limit (German: Richtgeschwindigkeit) of up to 130 km/h always applies. In case of an accident while driving faster, a court can decide on shared liability due to the increased operational risk.

Just thought that was interesting.

[durbster]

Here we go, lots of evidence in this thread of the kinds of speeds that people do in Europe. The French cops hide in bushes and under bridges with radar guns, and Le Mans is a huge cash haul for them. The roads are toll roads in excellent condition with very little traffic, so the police presence is quite obviously to raise a few Euros and everyone knows it.

The cops seem to enjoy the sport of it, especially considering the cars used are some of the finest exotica around (and not common sights in France)

Punishment is usually a fine that varies depending on the speed you were caught doing - €750 seems to be the biggest.

[Gusto]

Petey - it's pretty sensible to slow down when a road train is approaching you from the opposite direction on a two-lane road.

[ysu]

... Most people apparently do not believe that the average driver has the skills necessary to drive a car over long distances at 140kmh and neither do I.

OK this is the root of the problem. It's not a matter of belief; it's a fact that it works, and people can do it.
Have a little faith. Or at least try and see the working example, not brush it aside as "I don't believe it". That's religion territory.

...I think of all the things we could take from the German system, raising the speed limit's should be the last. Driver training is the priority and I really hope they do something about it. I know it would cause a ruckus but I even wish they would bring in a new policy stating that even existing drivers had to sit the training to retain their current license. With like a 3 year grace period or something. There are sooooooo many fickwuts on our roads at the moment. I don't know what it's like in other states but here in SA, and this is not an exaggeration, over 60% of people would be speed at least 10 to 20 times a day.

yep, that's exactly what I'm thinking - we should start somewhere. And once we're there, raising the speed limits will be a no brainer.

Around here speeding is not a big deal, yes the traffic moves faster than the sign, but that does not cause accidents. But people turning & changing lanes without blinker or even without looking(!) or driving while doing something else(!!)...or driving at a speed which is very different from the rest of the traffic (again, dangerous) - those are the things which make it rather difficult to drive safely around.
So I agree 100%; training is the first step.

by the way; I wonder how are the rest of the European countries cope? They all have 130km/h limit on divided, multi lane speedways.

[norbs]

... Most people apparently do not believe that the average driver has the skills necessary to drive a car over long distances at 140kmh and neither do I.

OK this is the root of the problem. It's not a matter of belief; it's a fact that it works, and people can do it.
Have a little faith. Or at least try and see the working example, not brush it aside as "I don't believe it". That's religion territory.

I don't believe 140 is safe either. On good roads, in good cars, maybe for short distances. But, what about for long distances? Are you telling me you are 100% alert on a long trip? Faster speeds mean less time to react and greater impacts. Just because a road is divided doesnt mean there wont be distractions. How many kangaroos/emus/wombats etc are there in Germany? So many people I know that have travelled here from over seas comment on the amount of road kill in the bush.

Also, what happens if a front tyre blows at 140kph? How many people could handle that? I know there are not many people I would get in a car with if they were going to travel at 140kph, that's for damned sure.

[J.D.]

... Most people apparently do not believe that the average driver has the skills necessary to drive a car over long distances at 140kmh and neither do I.

OK this is the root of the problem. It's not a matter of belief; it's a fact that it works, and people can do it.
Have a little faith. Or at least try and see the working example, not brush it aside as "I don't believe it". That's religion territory.

Either way, it isn't what I meant. The problem is that you'd have to train a whole new generation of drivers pretty much from scratch. It would then take around 50-60 years (assuming that's the average driving career before every driver would be capable of doing it with a reasonable level of safety. Germany did not do it this way. What do you do in the interim? You can't issue separate licences and again, I think the speed differential would cause a problem. The problem is the average driver and this is where we should be trying to raise the bar. I don't rate myself infallible. I've been both lucky (I survived a major crash which should have killed me 23 years ago) and I've done over 200,000kms of incident-free driving since 2004. The only thing I can put it down to is that I've taken fewer risks than I used to in the past. Skill-wise, I don't rate myself anything special and I'm not absolutely sure there is anything which could teach me to the point where I would feel safe at 140 for a long period. In Germany it's rare that you would be doing that sort of speed for more than an hour or two but on the Hume, going from Melbourne to Sydney, you'd be on it for 6-7 hours and that's a long stint.

Around here speeding is not a big deal, yes the traffic moves faster than the sign, but that does not cause accidents. But people turning & changing lanes without blinker or even without looking(!) or driving while doing something else(!!)...or driving at a speed which is very different from the rest of the traffic (again, dangerous) - those are the things which make it rather difficult to drive safely around.

Here's the average driver in practice. Talking on the phone, texting, smoking, gassbagging to other people in the car etc. You have to allow for the dickhead factor as well. Post a speed limit of 110 and there will always be someone doing 130. Post a limit of 140 and they will want to do 160. I'm just happy to be a boring old fart in a station wagon...

I also think that there would have to be yearly safety road worthy inspections, like the MOT does in the UK. For some this would not be an issue. For many others it would. Tyres would be a critical factor but not as critical as the human factor, I reckon.

[wobblysauce]

well lets get computer controlled cars, and then we will get people that will hack them and make them go faster again.

[Gizmo]

I've said for a long time. Speed doesn't kill. It's the sudden stop :P What i've actually said is speed doesn't kill, it's wreckless driving. You need to drive to the conditions.

The Gold Coast seems to be getting a major roads upgrade atm. Where i live they have just finished a new straight strech of road. Two lanes each way with a massave amount of room on either side, enough for another lane with a massive traffic island down the center to seperate each side. There are no houes. Only 1 servo each side. The speed limit is 70km/h. This is on a road that is in better shape than alot of our 100k/hr motorways! Is the road safe enough for a car travelling at 140k's. Yes. But there are other things to consider. Our driving test's here are crap, and alot of the cars on our roads are also. We have alot of older make cars.

Personally I think driver training needs to be improved and tougher tests.

My brother failed he's L's 7 times, and his P's 5 times. At some point they need to say, you know what. Your not cut out for driving i'm sorry. This wasn't because he couldn't drive a car, he could. It's just he was to bloody lazy to learn the road rules. There aren't to many things more important than that.

We need a major shakeup! in my opinion we need to look at Germany or Finland and copy our model off them. I think the goverment should also introduce driver training into the class room.

[ysu]

I don't believe 140 is safe either. On good roads, in good cars, maybe for short distances. But, what about for long distances? Are you telling me you are 100% alert on a long trip?

Pretty much yes. But I've caused my share of accidents due to inattention, and those were all at very low speeds where I thought "it's allright, what can happen" - it cost me plenty of money to know that if it can happen it will, so I'm trying my best

Faster speeds mean less time to react and greater impacts.

That's where the better safety features (both road and cars) applies -> new cars

Just because a road is divided doesnt mean there wont be distractions. How many kangaroos/emus/wombats etc are there in Germany? So many people I know that have travelled here from over seas comment on the amount of road kill in the bush.

that is true, we need better protection on the roadside - but as there's currently NOTHING on the roadside, it's understandably unsafe.

Also, what happens if a front tyre blows at 140kph? How many people could handle that? I know there are not many people I would get in a car with if they were going to travel at 140kph, that's for damned sure.

And that's where the driver training, and the better cars come into play again.



You guys are repeating the same things over and over again, and you get the same answers over and over again. Will you get tired of it? I'm starting to, so from here on I'll probably just answer a "read back".
It all works, it can be done, and no, I don't think the speed increase is the first thing to do: it's the last, when the time is right. Before that there's a lot of things to do to reduce the idiots on the road, the bad cars on the road, and the bad roads themselves. But the fact remains; it could and should be done.

ESPECIALLY due to the long distances.

bit of a calculation for ya to get the discussion moving;

You're travelling something like Syd=>Brissy, say ~1000kms. You're doing a 100km/h (you're a safe driver, besides it's not all 110 freeway!) and say you take 15 min brakes every 2 hours (after 1 hour 45 mins of driving) - plus add 45 mins for lunch and unexpected stops.
Total travel time; ~12hrs (11.45) (10h net + 4x15m + 45 mins)

If you could do it at 150km/h all the way on good roads:
Total travel time: ~8hrs ( 6.5h + 3x15m + 45m 7.45hrs)
- but I'd say you could easily drop the last break & the lunch and do it
Total travel time: 7hrs ! (6.5h + 2x15m)

Nearly half the time taken only!!!

Tell me which one tires you out more ? Is it safer to travel 12hours a day ? Not at all. Your attention will be fucked after 6-8 hrs.

Anyway, the bottom line, IMHO:
There are too many factors here to say it's better this way or that (Edit: regarding the long distances argument!)

But even if the speeds would not be increased, I'd still support proper training, even repeated training and especially: tougher penalties for those who don't watch the bloody road.
But enforcing this takes police force, you can't really do it with stationary speed cams; so the money grabber says no, I'm pretty sure.

Meh, this became a rather long post

[petey]

Petey - it's pretty sensible to slow down when a road train is approaching you from the opposite direction on a two-lane road.

Hehe, yep. Believe me I certainly did. That doesn't stop them wandering all over the place. Had one just about sideswipe my rear end as it filled the lane behind me after a turn. As you could imagine that required a new set of pants. Not to mention my dad in convoy about 500metres back just about fainted.

[ysu]

...I survived a major crash which should have killed me 23 years ago...

Hm...I'm guessing that - or even if someone's relatives or close friends were involved in something like that - can change one's view significantly.

Altho not necessarily. I had a colleague who was driving like a maniac. He survived more than 12 crashes within the first year of his driving, but this dozen times his car was totalled...
And he still drove like a maniac... What can you do, some people are not mentally ready for driving, I guess.

[Doso]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, before any speed increase is implemented there needs to be a fundamental change in road rules/ road culture

1. Better roads, current highway/freeway roads have basic centre crash barriers but most in Victoria lack barriers on either side of the road, if you fall off the road (accident avoidance, fall asleep etc etc) your hitting a tree and your fucked.

2. Better cars, car prices in Australia are quite high. The average age of a car in Australia is 10 years old compared to Germany/Europe which is around the 5 year mark, cars tend to be of higher safety by standard over there as well.

In Australia ABS/Front airbags are just about becoming standard where in Europe side/curtain airbags, Vehicular stability control & 5 star safety rated cars are beaming the standard. Also compulsory MOT's (yearly car tests) wouldn't be a bad idea as well as taxing the hell out of older cars causing it to be economical to get a newer car, use the Tax revenue for cash for clunkers scheme

3. Better driver training, I mean ffs it's a complete joke to get a license in this country, congratulations you can do a 3 point turn here's your license! Mandatory retesting every 5 years + compulsory defensive driver training

4. Better policing, get police to target dangerous acts on our road failing to zip lane merge, lack of indicators & far more random breath tests!

funny thing is probably 100 people die from obesity related diseases in this country for every one person who dies on our road yet nobody really gives a shit

[Nigel]

I found Australian drivers to be unpredictable on the whole, and lane discipline was non-existent. They'd be the first things I'd address.

Indeed, I have found the same thing.

[Pinger$]

funny thing is probably 100 people die from obesity related diseases in this country for every one person who dies on our road yet nobody really gives a shit

Self inflicted - doesn't count :P

(usually)

[durbster]

funny thing is probably 100 people die from obesity related diseases in this country for every one person who dies on our road yet nobody really gives a shit

Maybe that's why they're obese

[J.D.]

funny thing is probably 100 people die from obesity related diseases in this country for every one person who dies on our road yet nobody really gives a shit

Maybe that's why they're obese

Nah, just a bit of selective memory in action Durbs.

[norbs]

funny thing is probably 100 people die from obesity related diseases in this country for every one person who dies on our road yet nobody really gives a shit

That's rubbish. Have you seen the change in school nutrition standards? There is plenty going towards addressing obesity, it is just too easy to sit on your arse all day these days.

The problem is, a guy clutching his chest before he drifts off to the Maccas in the sky doesnt make as good a TV as a ricebox wrapped around a tree.

[Nigel]

are the old journalism ideal. If it bleeds it leads.

[jarmel]

As a young fella i went to the driver education complex in Shepperton and i have no doubt that it has probably saved my life. The course ran for 5 days on the first four days we were taught how to control the in conditions of road surfaces .Just one example. We could be driving along a dirt road that curved to the left and the instructor would put on the hand brake and put us into slide we had to get control back. At first we all were horrid but by weeks end we all had the knowledge on how to correct the car.

The best lesson i recieved from my time there was on the last day. We were allowed to drive the 6 cylinder falcons and drive it as fast as we like around the course (previously we had been in 180 b's) , naturally as an over eager 16 year old i went hell for leather and was doing allright, we came up to the main straight and i floored it. I started to brake for the upcoming corner but the instructor told me not to waste the speed i had built up and made me take the last corner with out braking. Needless to say i ended up way off into the grass.

He knew i had no hope of making the turn , what he taught me was respect for speed and the consequences of abusing it. I think everyone should be taught to drive beyond their and the cars limits.

It didnt stop me from speeding as an adult ( i lost 18 demerits in 2 years and licence for 12 months) but it did teach me when not to speed and to drive safely.

Eductation off all drivers is what is needed, from better knowledge of driving styles, the road laws as well as car handling.

ps: Why i think it saved my life ? I was taught the limits of what i and the car can do if i had not been shown this i would of found out the hard way (on public roads)

[Rots]

Last week whilst on a country dirt road, I deliberately tested out the ESP on a very loose bend. At about 60km/h I let the car drift out wide into the real loose stuff and then turned/accelerated suddenly. The back end stepped out only a little before the ESP/traction control engaged, gently applied the brakes and straightened the car with only very minor steering input by myself as a natural reaction. I kept the boot down, but it denied me of that input!

I was surprised at how quick and well it regathered the car, especially on dirt, as I never given thought to testing such things out before. I didn't have the balls to test it again, once was enough given the size of the trees next to the on corners afterwards. At least that corner was clear with wide run-off room.

On my way back however, at the same turn, I switched all driving aids off and discovered just how nice the car was to power slide on gravel before switching them back on to avoid any further encouragement of such silly acts.

[ysu]

Yeah, I think it'd be extremely beneficial to all of us - but especially the young drivers - if we had access to both tarmac and dirt tracks regularly.
With ample, safe runoffs, of course!

I've learned everything on public roads, too. I had gone out and searched for empty back roads and factory roads most of the time.
But I really wish I had the opportunity to have some tutor and a wide runoff to practice.