Mark Webber all hype ?

Dr. Pain · Post by **Dr. Pain** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:47 pm

I noticed at Albert Park the Williams uses heaps of TC where the Renault uses hardly any, even in the wet the Renault used very little TC. But to turn TC off would make for even worse starts and they would damage the rear tyres. With over 900 Bhp in a car weighting about 700kgs at race start plus the mechanical grip it could be more hassle to turn it off than what its worth. It would strain the transmittion, tyres but they would have some nice burnouts off the start just like the old days.

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:19 pm

Marks comment on RPM the other day was interesting. He said they know the reason for the starts being slow, but that there was no easy fix for it. That suggest that its engine HP related... I think

Exar Kun · Post by **Exar Kun** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:26 pm

People have been thinking that the engine is suffering down low from a lack of torque. Seems to be about right - they usually leave the line at the same time as other cars but after half a second or so they are already beginning to lag behind. And, if it is indeed the engine, then like Mark said, it would be very difficult to fix.

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:03 pm

LOL it would be interesting if the end up with Toyota engines. Marks Trulli bad starts would be a thing of the past

Boom Tish

Jamo · Post by **Jamo** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:21 pm

You know I used to credit Mark with being solid. But I've got to tell you I've downgraded him to downright flaky. So far this season he is making unforced driving errors left & right.

I'm starting to think the pressure has got him cooked.

Exar Kun · Post by **Exar Kun** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:52 pm

Jamo wrote:You know I used to credit Mark with being solid. But I've got to tell you I've downgraded him to downright flaky. So far this season he is making unforced driving errors left & right.

I'm starting to think the pressure has got him cooked.

It is odd. I thought after Monaco that he was coming good but he's still making unforced errors very often (at least once every two races) that cost him positions - and usually a number of them. It's a bit of a worry. I also always saw him as being incredibly solid - maybe not up there with the Kimi or Alonso in terms of raw pace but certainly one who could be counted upon to get to the end of the race without making a mistake.

Montey · Post by **Montey** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:28 pm

Exar Kun wrote:
Jamo wrote:You know I used to credit Mark with being solid. But I've got to tell you I've downgraded him to downright flaky. So far this season he is making unforced driving errors left & right.

I'm starting to think the pressure has got him cooked.
It is odd. I thought after Monaco that he was coming good but he's still making unforced errors very often (at least once every two races) that cost him positions - and usually a number of them. It's a bit of a worry. I also always saw him as being incredibly solid - maybe not up there with the Kimi or Alonso in terms of raw pace but certainly one who could be counted upon to get to the end of the race without making a mistake.

I kind of agree, but for one trait of Mark's that is probably making his mistakes look worse than they are. Essentially Mark owns up to his stuff ups. I suspect that most of the other drivers make just as many mistakes, but are not honest enough with the public to put their hand up and admit it.

Jamo · Post by **Jamo** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:37 pm

Sure he admits the big ones that take him out of the race. But what about the other little lock ups, overcorrections and general stuff ups every race that cost him time and even positions?

Frank must be deeply disappointed but he's way too classy to admit it.

Threeps · Post by **Threeps** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:57 pm

I agree Jamo. The Canadian Grand Prix coverage didn't show Mark that much but that mistake where two or three cars got through was not good at all. Then he was behind a slower car (Massa) for the best part of twenty laps and I reckon he should have easily finished in front of him. I'm easily dissappointed in him at Williams.

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:53 pm

When was the Canadian GP on. Did I miss it ?

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:02 pm

it was on last weekend, and the Indianapolis round is ion this weekend... both around 2am though

w00dsy · Post by **w00dsy** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:47 pm

Threeps wrote: Then he was behind a slower car (Massa) for the best part of twenty laps and I reckon he should have easily finished in front of him. I'm easily dissappointed in him at Williams.

But once again with the BMW engine running hot, they had to tell Mark to ease off on the revs, Nick blew up and they were suss on Marks. That explained his lack of pace, Webber just made sure to get some points and secure a good qual position for Indy.

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:52 pm

personally, i havent taken much notice of the small errors, just cause i think there's always something else behind it. i'm no MW fanboy, bu t the williams isn't the best car out there...

w00dsy · Post by **w00dsy** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:33 pm

Canada was the first time this year he didn't qual in the top 6. Pretty good effort for a rather average car. Trulli was the same.

Dr. Pain · Post by **Dr. Pain** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:51 pm

I thought after the start and first few laps that the Canadian GP was going to be boring and why did I stay up to watch it. After that thought it was like someone took a dump into an industrial fan!!!!!!!

Turned out to be an awesome race, even better if you're a Kimi fan

Hope the US GP is going to be a good one too. Lots of good races this year due to the fact that there are more challengers.

Jamo · Post by **Jamo** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:10 am

Is he having a calamitous season or what!!!
It's incredible, I think he may have broken a mirror whilst sodomising a black cat under a ladder.

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:40 am

I think Mark is even thinking that way. He stated post race that "He doesn't know what to do to get some luck"

I think a lot of people are hammering his poor performance on him alone. But its clear that the Williams is not the car that eveyone thought it would be.

dvestate · Post by **dvestate** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:49 am

^^^^

Your right, the Williams promised so much towards the end of last season and has pretty much produced nothing......

It will be even more disappointing that the other seat that was open to Mark last season Renault, that those cars are performing very well.

It seems very strange that the cars can qualify so well and then be sooooo far off the race pace, hopefully Williams find some answers quick

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:05 am

They will be lucky if they can find an engine. As yet, they dont have one for next year.

Montey · Post by **Montey** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:22 pm

Its fairly obvious, I think, that the new Williams wind tunnel was just completely stuffed up when it was installed. So now they are getting completely bogus results. This means that whenever they did their fast track installations of new aero kit on to the car it made things worse, not better.

Additionally I wonder in BMW is doing the dodgy on the engine. The car is obviously under powered, and being a bit of a conspiracy theorist, I wonder if BMW has deliberately underpowered the Williams engine to ensure they are behind in the development process. Its worth pointing out that the engine started the season under-powered and does not seem to have improved all year.

jarmel · Post by **jarmel** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:57 pm

The cars does seem under powered but you also have to take into account that they are running the cars with very heavy downforce thus producing heaps of drag .
Their aero is just so bad and everything else is sufferingas a result.

Montey · Post by **Montey** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:04 am

jarmel wrote:The cars does seem under powered but you also have to take into account that they are running the cars with very heavy downforce thus producing heaps of drag .
Their aero is just so bad and everything else is sufferingas a result.

In all but one circumstance I would agree with you. The one area that points to the engine for me is the take off speed of the Williams cars from the start of the race.

During that period of 0kph->~70kpm(???) the aero package on the car provides a limited effect. I don't mean it provides no effect, but certainly the slower the car the less its overall effect on the performance of the car. So when the car initially spins up from a standing start the aero package would be having zero effect.

Now, the obvious counter to this is to say "oh, well the issue there is the launch control." The one thing that steers me away from this is that the launch control system is entirely controlled by Williams, but the engine is entirely controlled by a competitor manufacturer. Yet since the begining of the year we have seen barely any improvement in the launching of the Williams off the line. This seems interesting if the issue was the launch control system.

*spins propeller*

Sterling · Post by **Sterling** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:10 am

Formula 1 is too much about the car and not enough about the driver, thats why they are becoming increasingly more boring.

I also find the whole 'F1' attitude really off putting, everybody is so up themselves.

For me champ cars have always been more entertaining at least there is passing and a variety of tracks.

w00dsy · Post by **w00dsy** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:02 pm

fourthof5 wrote:They will be lucky if they can find an engine. As yet, they dont have one for next year.

It seems almost everyone now knows it's Cosworth next year and Toyota in 2007, but it just hasn't been announced. Apparently they told all the people at Grove the other day it's Cossies.

w00dsy · Post by **w00dsy** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:06 pm

Montey wrote:It
Additionally I wonder in BMW is doing the dodgy on the engine. The car is obviously under powered, and being a bit of a conspiracy theorist, I wonder if BMW has deliberately underpowered the Williams engine to ensure they are behind in the development process. Its worth pointing out that the engine started the season under-powered and does not seem to have improved all year.

Given they not only supply free engines but also pay Williams, i'd seriously doubt they'd do something as silly as that, it's their reputation as well. Besides, if Williams assume it's the chassis, they will work overtime to fix it, thus putting them further ahead when they get a decent engine. I do think the BMW engine is down on power, but i'd be more likely to think it was arrogance that has got them behind in development. I'm yet to see Williams anywhere near at the top of the speed traps, regardless of downforce levels. Williams worst period in F1 has been while they have had BMW engines, must be more to it than a sudden bad chassis.