New camera dilemma

[Big Kev]

If I went for this set
Canon EF 17-40mm f4L USM
Canon EF 24-105mm f4L IS USM
Canon EF 100-400mm f4.5-5.6L IS USM

it would set me back about 2000 if I went for grey imports on all of them from digitalrev. I guess that's not too bad for a good set of lenses. The 17-40 doesn't have image stabilising and I'm not sure how steady my hand is but it's worth trying some of mine with IS turned off to see what I get.

And another 2k for a FF body of course.

[J.D.]

For a FF setup, that would be near-ideal but I'm sure I don't have to tell you, it's a lot of dosh.

It will be heavy too!

The upside is that you can also use your crop body with the 100-400 to function as a quasi 160-640.

You wouldn't miss IS in the 17-40 very much. Whenever I have to shoot in low light, I usually brace myself against something but on a wide setting you can go pretty low without shake being too much of a problem. That said, I tripod is going to be more important for the landscapes you're proposing.

Is the 6D likely to be that much in the UK?

One more thing: if you're interested in using the 100-400 for motorsport, you might want to check what restrictions apply at the circuit. I'd do that before you even buy. Sometimes they're cool about it - like the day Dex and I went to Phillip Island with my 500 (there were about 4 people there plus Sambo). For a Grand Prix though, they're likely to be a lot less understanding.

OTOH, the 100-400 is probably compact enough not to attract too much attention.

[Big Kev]

The money isn't too big an issue spread over a year or so. For instance I probably wouldn't get the long lens until I needed it for something specific (although I did see a second hand one earlier in the year for only 800 and nearly bought it - should have really for that price).

The 6D looks like it'll be £1800 (body only) on the highstreet or £2400 with the 24-105mm. Not sure on the grey prices yet.
The 5D3 is £2400 (body only) on the highstreet and £2000 (body only) on the grey import market.

I've never had my bag searched at Silverstone or Prescott. I don't think I've ever seen any restrictions mentioned over here. It's a fat lens rather than a particularly long one so I would think I'd be ok.

[DexterPunk]

That'd be a great set of lenses... only thing id change personally is the 17-40 L to the 16-35 L. but its a lot more pricey. I'll be grabbing the 100-400L later this year myself.

On the point of IS.. it probably isn't really as necessary for the wider lenses. You will find that the more you zoom in, the more you are going to multiply any error in regards to hand shake, and the more IS becomes very desirable. Which is why you see it on just about all telephoto L series lenses. It becomes less and less of a problem the wider you go, which is why i wouldn't worry about it as much on a wide angle lens. Similar for depth of field... which is not only effected by the aperture, but is also a function of magnification. Reducing magnification (wide angle) will also widen the depth of field.

[Big Kev]

The 16-35 is just under twice the price but not unreasonable. I'll have a think....

I'm thinking about getting the 24-105 now so that I have a better general lens to cover most situations for the moment and then look at the others in the new year.

[J.D.]

Did you mention doing Milky Way shots with the wide angle?

If so, IS won't be a factor at all. It'll be off a rock steady tripod.

The old pre-IS rule-of-thumb is that you use roughly the same number for shutter speed as you do for focal length. For a 50mm lens, try to keep the shutter speed at 1/60th or above. For a 500mm lens you would try to keep it at 1/500th or above so at 16mm (or equivalent) you have a fair bit of latitude.

So IS doesn't really matter much in wide angles. It helps a lot in the 24-105 though.

[norbs]

Want wide, grab one of those russian fisheyes

[Big Kev]

Did you mention doing Milky Way shots with the wide angle?

If so, IS won't be a factor at all. It'll be off a rock steady tripod.

Yep. You're right on the tripod too. Wasn't thinking about that It should be ok for just free standing landscape stuff too because I doubt I'd go as low as 1/60th anyway.

Want wide, grab one of those russian fisheyes

Indeedy.
There's some Chinese company I think that does cheap as chips lenses and they have an 8mm for about £250. Almost worth buying for a laugh!!

Thanks for all the advice so far guys. You're good at saying the right things without patronising a noob, like so many other photography sites do!

[J.D.]

There's some Chinese company I think that does cheap as chips lenses and they have an 8mm for about £250. Almost worth buying for a laugh!!

I think you mean Samyang, which is actually Korean. No matter:

8mm f/3.5

That's a fisheye on a crop body. This one is for full frame but it's not a fisheye:

14mm f/2.8

Both are manual focus. They are also excellent lenses, especially for that kind of money.

They are also sold as Bower, ProOptic and Rokinon brands. Try Fleabay.

Fisheyes were originally invented for getting a whole hemisphere in one shot for astrophotography. Don't ask me how they do it though. Dex might know.

Kev, I'm always happy to help whatever way I can. I'm sure that goes for the others too.

I just hope that you're not confused by anything I've said.

[Big Kev]

Here's a real spanner in the works.

The husband of one of the secretaries at work is a Canon employee. He can get stuff at staff discount prices (only up to a certain value a year so it's not like he's acting as a cheap shop!). Check out this price difference.

5D3 + 24-105mm lens
Jessops (high street photography shop) £3075
Amazon £3300
Cheapest high street price £3005
DigitalRev grey import £2560
His price £2075!!!!!

He can't tell me a release date for the 6D yet but he's unlikely to be able to get them very early as the first runs will all be out to stores so it would be at least next April/May/June.
If he's knocking 30% off I could get the 16-35mm for around 700 instead of a grand as well.

That's massively tempting to get a 5D3 for that price. Only disadvantage is having to pay the whole lot up front but I could raid the savings.

[Hazelb]

Here's a real spanner in the works.

The husband of one of the secretaries at work is a Canon employee. He can get stuff at staff discount prices (only up to a certain value a year so it's not like he's acting as a cheap shop!). Check out this price difference.

5D3 + 24-105mm lens
Jessops (high street photography shop) £3075
Amazon £3300
Cheapest high street price £3005
DigitalRev grey import £2560
His price £2075!!!!!

He can't tell me a release date for the 6D yet but he's unlikely to be able to get them very early as the first runs will all be out to stores so it would be at least next April/May/June.
If he's knocking 30% off I could get the 16-35mm for around 700 instead of a grand as well.

That's massively tempting to get a 5D3 for that price. Only disadvantage is having to pay the whole lot up front but I could raid the savings.

Can you order me one too please

[norbs]

Here's a real spanner in the works.

The husband of one of the secretaries at work is a Canon employee. He can get stuff at staff discount prices (only up to a certain value a year so it's not like he's acting as a cheap shop!). Check out this price difference.

5D3 + 24-105mm lens
Jessops (high street photography shop) £3075
Amazon £3300
Cheapest high street price £3005
DigitalRev grey import £2560
His price £2075!!!!!

He can't tell me a release date for the 6D yet but he's unlikely to be able to get them very early as the first runs will all be out to stores so it would be at least next April/May/June.
If he's knocking 30% off I could get the 16-35mm for around 700 instead of a grand as well.

That's massively tempting to get a 5D3 for that price. Only disadvantage is having to pay the whole lot up front but I could raid the savings.

I think your "need/want" of FF is strong enough to justify the spend Kev. You said earlier, "I currently have the 18-55mm EF-S kit lens, a 70-300mm canon EF lens and the 100mm L Macro lens." So you'd need the 24-105L as a walk around lens. The 70-300mm is probably going to look god awful on FF. So you need to factor that in. The 100mm will kick ARSE.

As far as the 24-105mm goes, have you considered the 24-70 f/2.8L? I know it doesnt have the range, but it has an extra stop. I suppose it depends on how keen you are on IS as well. Just a thought. After the Magic Drainpipe, the 24-70 would be my best lens. Terrific in low light too.

[Big Kev]

I might already have a buyer for my 70-300 but I'll keep that until next summer when the motor racing starts up again.

The 24-105 seems to get excellent reviews as a general walk about lens and as part of the 'kit' it works out a bit cheaper than buying it separately.
I think I'll also enquire how much he could get the 16-35mm for. That would mean a FF and 2 of the 3 lenses I want for the same price as just the camera. I think it's too big a discount to miss.

[DexterPunk]

Epic deal!


Sent from Han Solo using TK-421's phone.

[Duke]

WOW Kev, what a steal. Too good a deal to pass up that's for sure.
Norbs & you will be able to compare all things 5DIII.

by the way I've really enjoyed this thread given my introduction to DSLR's, albeit with a recent 60D requisition. The information & knowledge you blokes freely offer is sensational.

[Big Kev]

I just had these two replies from a photo forum.

Unless you can place exactly what your pictures are missing, I think you will be disappointed with the upgrade.

Don't get me wrong, the 5D3 is a very good camera, but full frame is not for everyone. It's something you need to know is right before laying down the cash.

Remember, your 550D has the same sensor as a 7D, so generally speaking the images will not be much different.

Before spending any money, you need to rule out the one thing about your images that you can fix for free. You.

This, I can assure you, is very much the voice of experience in that field.

By all means, get it. New kit is always fun but to be honest, it has little impact on the end result, I shoot on both a digital medium format platform and a D80, and whilst technically there is a massive difference in quality, it doesn't mean the D80 pictures are any worse to look at. It's all about how you use light, be that flash or ambient. The difference in quality is all to do with the depth of field, noise control, perspective and overall look and feel but it doesn't change whether or not it's a good photograph, so to echo Richards comment, if your pictures are missing something, it's unlikely to be down to your kit.

[DexterPunk]

Fairly true, which is why my initial posts were to advise lenses over a body. Depending on how far you take photography, and how passionate you are about it, you will eventually out grow out of a crop sensor. But that doesn't mean you can't take ripper shots on what you have. I eventually saw the limitations of what I had, but at the same time, the gap between a 5d2 and a 30d were fucking huge. Sensor design was in over drive during that period. Coupled with the other pluses of full frame, it was a huge difference. The 550d, 600, and 650d all now have a lot of that technology, and not a huge amount has changed. Similarly, the difference between image quality between a 5d2 and 5d3 is relatively small compared to previous bodies.

I'm really in two minds about those comments. Yes, the biggest thing to determine quality is the person behind the lens. Understanding light is what will always separate those in the know compared to the average guy with a dSLR. But at the same time, you'd rather it was you letting yourself down, rather than your gear. I guess some of us here can justify the costs when we are earning money from it as well.


I still say go for it. It's a fantastically rewarding hobby even if you're not making money from it. And you only live once. If you're truly getting into it. I don't see why you shouldn't spend the money on something you're loving.


Sent from Han Solo using TK-421's phone.

[Big Kev]

Yeah I can understand the comments too. If you don't have an eye for the picture and you use all the wrong settings then no matter how good a camera you have they'll always look like average photos. I feel like I'm past that point. The photos I took over a year ago are no where near as good as the ones I take now, from a technical point of view but I feel they lack sharpness and clarity and a lot of the time I'm compromised because I could have done with a different lens in that specific situation etc.

I started doing this partly because I was getting too sedentary, in front fo the computer or TV all the time, and I've really enjoyed going out and seeing new places and sights. To that end I'm happy to spend the money to get more enjoyment from it, instead of coming home, looking at 80 photos and feeling... mmm.... not quite as good as I would have liked but they're ok. I'll never be good enough to earn money or as good as some of you guys but I enjoy doing it and that's the main thing.

[Big Kev]

Well I've done a lot of thinking, researching and checking of the bank account over the weekend.

The option to buy through Canon is pretty much always going to be available (as long as they don't have another tsunami!). As we're heading in to autumn and winter I'll probably be out less and less with the camera over the next 4-5 months so I think I'll hold off until the spring. By then the 6D will be out, I'll have had the opportunity to read reviews and save some money up and the 5D3 will probably have dropped in price a bit more. The difference between buying that 24-105 'kit' lens and body together or separately isn't really much different so I might as well wait until spring and buy it together and maybe save up some more to get a wider lens at the same time (there's a rumoured 14-24mm L coming soon) and maybe a speedlight too to help the macro work.

Your insight has been brilliant and your opinions very welcomed.

[Swain OHaw]

Late to the debate but that sounds like a sensible decision for now - and your Macro lens may be the best thing for the upcoming weather anyway, frost and such like usually make for some nice macros ... fog is good too, but a 50mm is good for that, I think, if you have one?

I agree with Dex's last post as well ... if you're into photography and have an idea what you're doing, then an upgrade will help you both now and in the future as you grow into it. Also, you don't have to be making money from Photography, to spend money you have earned on enjoying Photography ...

[J.D.]

IF you want to see the difference between full frame and a decent crop camera using the same lens, have a look at what Dex and I did at Phillip Island last year. The ones at the bottom of this page are mine and Dex's shots are on the next page.

http://www.arseforums.com/phpBB/viewtop ... start=7025" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm referring to the long shots in this (check the EXIF data).

He was using his 5D MkII and I was using a combination of 40D and 7D. We were both using the same 500mm f/4L Canon lens with a 1.4 teleconverter.

The way I see it, the main difference is in the processing. I can't process for nuts.

YMMV.

[DexterPunk]

I cropped some of those pretty massively though. The car running into the gravel is basically a 100% crop. The panned shots were with the 70-200 I believe.


Sent from Han Solo using TK-421's phone.

[J.D.]

Yeah, I s'pose...

[Big Kev]

Think I've made a decision.
Just waiting to hear on the cost from my friendly man at Canon with the staff discount.....

[Big Kev]

Just ordered the following from my man on the inside at Canon.

Canon EOS 5D Mark III + 24-105mm Lens Kit
Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM lens

He's saving me a not inconsiderable £1200 over the best online shop prices. That means for the price I was willing to spend on a 6D I can get the 5D3 instead. Or you can look at it as the 16-35 effectively being 'free'. Should be an interesting summer

Hopefully I can save enough between now and Silverstone to get the 100-400mm as well but we'll see how it goes.