Leaky water heater

[ysu]

Ok here's the situation;
we've got this standard water heater tank at the back of the house, electric one. It's estimated 6 yrs old when we got a quote for a solar panel heater a few months back.

It has started to leak lately - in a funny way. There's a rubber plug thingie at the top, and the water is coming out from underneath that sometimes, in a slow trickle. (it's popping the plug up) Put it back, popping up again, water leaking.

I don't know if it's dying or some setting may fix it, I wonder if any of you guys have experience in this area and if you could give me advice? Worth calling a professional, or should we just replace it, as we plan to do it anyway?

by the way part of our dilemma is that we'd like to have gas connected later from the street, and there's the govt rebate on solar / electric installs. But we've been told that if we have gas installed it may cancel out the rebate. And just today I've seen this funky install from EcoSmart, which is a gas-boosted solar panel water heater (that'd be ideal!).

Big thanks for any info, guys!

[Hz-Lab]

Are you saying it's leaking from the small plastic bit at the bottom of the valve at the Top of your unit? If so, that's what it is meant to do. It's a pressure relief valve. In saying that, if it is doing it constantly it probably needs replacing. Take the little metal tab off the valve and take it into a plumbing supplies store so they can tell which valve and kpa rating you need. Stick with RMC branded valves. They are more expensive but will last longer.

So, with any luck, you don't need a new HWU.

Ok, to the next part of your post.

I am personally not a fan of Solar Panelled units as they tend to get pretty Maintenance heavy after a few years, and if your in a frost prone area you can end up with cracked panels and split hoses, regardless of the glycol systems put in place to prevent it. In my opinion Heat Pumps are the way to go, i'll get back to them in a minute.

You should also be aware the federal rebates for HWU have just changed thanks to "The Feds are Burning (your money)" Garrett. Before hand you used to buy the unit, Install, claim your rebates from the government, all is good. Now, you need to be means tested and the rebates come through Medicare for some reason. I am yet to see the exact system but apparently less than 40% of people who were eligable for a rebate beforehand will be able to recieve it now. Having said that, the REC's (renewable energy certificates) are still available. Most Solar units/Heat pumps will attract between 20 and 30 REC's and at the moment I think they are worth around the $29 mark. So, lets say the system you install is worthy of 27 Rec points @ $29, then you will recieve $783 back.

Now, Heat pumps, If you have never seen them in action or know how they work, again, visit you plumbing store and ask. The simplest way to put it though is it's like a Fridge, in reverse. It takes all the warm air out of the atmosphere and uses it to heat the water. There is plenty more details but it will just confuse you, it's as simple as that. Now, think how often your fridge breaks?.. not very fricken often, if ever.

The other Pro's of Heatpumps are:-
Small Footprint - Can be installed and plumbed into the house where your old electric unit was.
No Panels - No unsightly panels on the roof and no extra load on the roof.
Quicker recovery times - In most cases, not all though.
Quicker Install time - pay your plumber for 2 hours work instead of a whole day for a Panel Install.

Now pricewise they are about the same as Panelled systems of the same capacity, so don't worry there, you will save some coin on install however. They will also be eligable for the same REC's as a solar of similar capacity if not more.

Heat pumps are still solar units though, as they draw heat from the air which is originally heated by the sun. It's just not a traditional panel system of harnessing the suns energy.

There is a fair bit of difference between the different brands of Heatpumps though, they all go about it different ways. Some are 2 piece units where you will place the refridgeration unit on top of the tank after, Some are one piece where they are already attatched, some heat the tank in different ways. So do some research and feel free to PM me any questions, I'm pretty confident I can answer most of your queries and If I don't know I will find out for you.

I prefer the brand "Quantum", they were the 1st in Aus to make Heatpumps, and make quality stuff. They are an Aussie Company but the units are built overseas. They are Honest about it which is more than I can say for a lot of the Brands out there who claim to be Aussie Companies selling Aussie made products, It's bollocks. I personally had a Quantum 270L installed at my parents place. In can supply a shitload more hot water than their old 250L electic and there has been no problem yet (2 years on). Their Hot Water component of their electricity bill has pretty much halved. The one thing to keep in mind though is that during the winter months. Your electricity bill will probably be pretty similar to what it is now, it's in Summer, Autumn and Spring where you save all your money. A lot of people expect their bills to be halved all year round. It just won't happen, but as a total yearly running cost, you will see the savings.

We basically push 95% of our customers on to the Heatpumps over Solar, and none come back complaining. It's only the 5% who stayed with the Solar units who come back for replacement Solar Connecters every 6 months.. ha


In saying all that, A dedicated Gas system will be just as a efficient. So if can get the gas line hooked up. Then that's another option.

Hope this confused you. Like I said, just PM me if you need more info. Or post it here.

[ysu]

Many thanks for the comprehensive post, it's not confusing at all. You were a big help.

I've reduced the temperature on the current unit and now the top did not pop out for 2 days, and I see no leak. Will see how it goes. (it's a round rubber plug in the center of the flat top, not the official pressure equaliser valve which is at the side of the upper part)

I think I'll go after the gas, if they are of similar efficiency - after all we'll need heating too, and they say the winters are frosty on the central coast. We've a gas heater and it's much better than the electric ones. And this will leave the roof open for a PV system later on.

[Hz-Lab]

yeah you won't look back from the gas, you looking at Gas Storage or Instantaneous? if you're going for instant. Always get the next sized up unit you think you will need. Overkill is the key.

[ysu]

yeah you won't look back from the gas, you looking at Gas Storage or Instantaneous? if you're going for instant. Always get the next sized up unit you think you will need. Overkill is the key.

The instant, probably.
Altho I've seen in a catalogue recently something they call "Continuous Gas Boosted Solar". That's a tank+S.Panels+gas heater. Funky.
But it maybe a bit too much, and certainly a more complicated solution

The simple on-demand instant gas-heater is good, that's what we had in the unit we rented before this, and it was perfect. Thanks for the tip, we'll upsize it

[Hz-Lab]

well, all solar units have some kind of boosting, either gas or electric. Gas is probably your cheaper option as far as running costs, but if you have access to gas, why not just go gas. The Gas boost is really only something i'd look at if you were using LPG gas.

[Bauer]

+1 for instantaneous. We went for Rinnai and went 1 step up from what we needed. We love it and jumped on board when the gas man laid pipes under our street

[norbs]

Remind me to pump you re. the heat pumps when I am down south HZ. I was all for one, but couldn't get any bastard to say a good thing about them. I am excited to hear positive things from you.

[Santaria]

Remind me to pump you re. the heat pumps when I am down south HZ. I was all for one, but couldn't get any bastard to say a good thing about them. I am excited to hear positive things from you.

My understanding is they are still relatively new when comparing them to solar. My Cousin got one for his system when he built his house, the worst part was the cost. For the unit, not installation.

[ysu]

Remind me to pump you re. the heat pumps when I am down south HZ. I was all for one, but couldn't get any bastard to say a good thing about them. I am excited to hear positive things from you.

My understanding is they are still relatively new when comparing them to solar. My Cousin got one for his system when he built his house, the worst part was the cost. For the unit, not installation.

I've got a leaflet here from ecoSmart, Compact Heat Pump comes at $2980 , and some $1300 rebate. That's $1680 (w/o install)
rated for 3adult+2kids.

It's not too much more than a solar panel now.

[Hz-Lab]

Remind me to pump you re. the heat pumps when I am down south HZ. I was all for one, but couldn't get any bastard to say a good thing about them. I am excited to hear positive things from you.

My understanding is they are still relatively new when comparing them to solar. My Cousin got one for his system when he built his house, the worst part was the cost. For the unit, not installation.

Heatpumps have been around for over 20 years. Quantum have been making commercial units for that long. Rheem, Dux and the other big guns have only just came in to the market in the last 5 years. They are pretty tried and tested. Not much can go wrong with them. I would install a Heatpump 100% of the time over the Solar.

Beware of places like ecosmart offering One off discounted costs (i.e. only asking you to pay a smaller after rebate cost). In most cases these offers shaft you a good couple of hundred bucks over you claiming them yourself.

[ysu]

Back to the starting point;
AGL has finally realised I can't get gas after all ( They did not even try to give me a quote; simply and plainly refused to install it. Strange guys. Especially after reassuring me twice over the phone initially, that there's gas in the street already. )

Guys, explain, why did you prefer the solar pump again? To me it seems an inferior solution compared to a passive solar panel system.

What Hz wrote, I think is mostly small impact things;

1) Small Footprint - Can be installed and plumbed into the house where your old electric unit was.
2) No Panels - No unsightly panels on the roof and no extra load on the roof.
3) Quicker recovery times - In most cases, not all though.
4) Quicker Install time - pay your plumber for 2 hours work instead of a whole day for a Panel Install.

items 1&4 - installation
The installation is a one-off thing; it's included in the total price I have to pay. And it does not seem so much cheaper overall (see below).
item 2)
The roof is not something I'm looking at often, so a panel up there really would not bother me much, even if it was unsightly (which it isn't, not to me).
item 3)
What's recovery time ? Recovery of what?


From what I'm reading heat pump is not nearly as good as a solar panel solution - if you have a sunny place. (talking about long-term energy usage)
I've a north-facing fully sunlit roof.

Heat pump;
1) installed final payable price seems to be about $500-$1000 less than a solar panel.
2) Heat pump is claimed to use about 30% less energy than a conventional heater (altho the source is, again, rather unreliable)
3) it needs to use the electricity in daylight hours, compared even to the traditional units which can run on off-peak electricity. Peak elec costs 200-300 % compared to off-peak !

So simply based on 2 and 3 it's not much of a saving at my pocket, maybe 30%. It's highly dependent on the energy prices though.

*edit: other source claims 70% less energy compared to conventional...now that'd make a big difference. It'd make it about even with the solar panel solution I guess.


A solar solution is independent of energy prices when it generates hot water. If there's not much sunlight for a longer period, it'll indeed revert to act like a regular system.

I've talked to a couple of guys running solar, and they say they don't even have it plugged into the mains, only very occasionally. Pretty much all year round it generates enough hot water for free.
Yet some online sources claim pretty hefty electricity costs for them. (these are international sites though)

This is something I'm still researching on.


Edit2
I've found some AU govt. sites claiming that the solar panel solution is using about 70% less energy (I guess this is an average for all installations)
Bloody hard to find reliable data in this area. Whoever sells things, always give you data - which is likely to be manicured to show their solution to come off on top. Independent sources are scarce, or hard to find.

[Hz-Lab]

Ysu, sorry I missed this, I'm only on iPhone at the moment so I'll post a more detailed answer to your questions tomorrow. Also, what general area are you in as it will make a huge difference to the efficiency. I always push heatpumps as they are by far thest option for south aus. But I can try and work out what will be best for ur application too.

Just quickly tho, recovery time relates to how quick the unit heats up from cold. So if you were to drain it of all it's hot water, how long til it's ready to use again. Explain more tomorrow night,feel free to pm me if I don't respond, I always forget to check this thread.

[ysu]

Don't waste your time mate, thanks. I've ordered a solar panel & tank solution, will get it set up tomorrow.
I'm on the central coast, by the way.

[Hz-Lab]

well, I checked it out anyway. Depending on which solar system you went for, panelled systems are pretty comparable in that area. Good luck with it anyway, regardless of which way you went, you will see savings over your old system. And you're doing something good for the environment.

for anyone else contemplating similar moves from Electric to Solar. just a few things.

There is a lot of bullshit information regarding both Panelled systems and Heatpumps. Your best bet regarding information is to go into plumbing wholesalers & resellers like your Reece's, Tradelinks, Plumbtec's and Samios's. Try to avoid going to Solarshops or companies that purely focus on that particular product. Why you might ask? well, Places like that are generally aligned to a particular company and generally push that one individual brands product over another brand purely because they get more kickback. It happens an awful lot.

Now we get kickbacks too in the form of Rebate's, but generally it's very similar between products, so there is no real financial incentive to push one product over another. So we generally push the better product as we like align ourselves with Quality. The market at the moment is flooded with "Solar Shop" specific companies shafting people out of money in regards to rebates and also shitty product. The Efficiency ratings system in regards to Solar Hot Water is in need of a revamp, and is in the process of getting one. As it stands now a 4 star rated Unit can actually be less efficient than a 3 star, because the efficiency ratings at the moment are calculated at a particular point at a tank. So it measures temperatures at, for arguments sake, at the 2 thirds full level. This is all good and well for some units, but Units such as the Quantum heat the water in a different way which means the water at that point of the tank is generally much cooler than it's counterparts. Yet it supplies a lot more hot water for less energy. Stupid I know, that's why it's getting revamped.

Also, Companies claiming that Heatpumps are a lot more costly to run than Panelled systems are a little misleading. The truth is, They are using Winter Figures. It's true, during Winter, A Heatpump unit will only be marginally cheaper than a normal Electric unit. These are the figures they use. However, if you look at the other seasons, you see it uses less Energy than a panelled system, and in summer, almost No Electricity at all. So if you compare the yearly running costs, normally (with exceptions to climate and different areas) you would end up with a Heatpump system being marginally more efficient than the Panels.

Another difference is. When there is no sun, your panelled system doesn't work. When there is no sun, a heatpump system WILL work, as it pulls warmth from the atmosphere. most heatpumps will still heat at temps around 5 degrees C, the Quantum unit will actually still heat at 0 degrees, and sometimes below that. The Quantum unit, and I also think the Stiebel Eltron (although I am not as familiar with the Stiebels) both heat at very low temps so even in Winter these units run very efficiently and use less energy than a panelled system.

Heat pumps are also a lot more resilient to Frost, Panelled systems, unless fitted with an anti frost valve (Which normally fuck up within 2 years) or use a closed circuit glycol anti freeze generally will crack in frosty conditions. Glycol can generally also get released into the water supply if pipe bursts occur and well, yeah, poison you.

Also, Panelled systems dump unbelievable amounts of Water during summer. What you save on electricity you will pay for in Water, and with Water prices rising, who needs that. Solar units can't escape the sun, on Hot days the water can get to boiling point within the panels and pipework, and the Unit has to keep it all moving otherwise shit will just blow, so what does it do to combat it? it has a relief valve and dumps boiling water on to your roof. Off the top of my head, and I could be wrong, on a 40 degree day the average 2 panelled system dumps something like around 500L of water a day, a DAY!!!!.. cripes. Heatpumps however just turn their fans off and switch on and off as required.

Also the ongoing maintainence cost of panelled units is criminal, Rheem's being the worst, the connectors on those things constantly crack.

So, if you haven't worked it out, I am a Heatpump fan. Not saying panelled systems are not good, cos they are, they will save you money over electric for sure and they are good for the environment. However Heatpumps are just so much better, they are definitely the future, so much so that some companies are talking of dropping their panelled ranges and just rolling with Heatpumps.

Hope this has been informative to some. Norbs I see you wanted some info, didn't get a chance to chat about it whilst you were down here, just buzz me if you still need more info.

[norbs]

You have pretty much confirmed what I have been able to gleen after much research myself. Good to get someone to back it up.